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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:56 am 
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Posts: 129
Quote:
That's right. I remembered that as I reviewed my quote of your original
post above. Thanks for reminding me.

Somebody mentioned simply adding stiff tubes (ABS?) to the leaders just
above the bar, so you could hold them like flying a kite on handles
(instantaneous AoA control while unhooked). The bar would keep them a
fixed distance apart at the top, but that shouldn't interfere.

Now I'm trying to think of a way to use that to eliminate the need for a
bar-activated safety release with a FREE bar (should work fine as-is with a
conventional bar).


Tom,

Besides launching/landing unhooked, If you want instantaneous AOA control while riding unhooked, you should make and try a 3-D bar (I posted the method to make some of them sometimes ago either on this forum or on the kitesurf group).

P.S., A FREE BAR is NOT free as you are connected to it. A 3-D bar is fully FREE as you can hook in or unhook as will and still be able to control the AOA of the kite (some 3-D bar also allows you to eliminate the trim strap all together...)

P.P.S., 3-D bar is not patented (as far as I know. If someone has patented it then I may help to invalidate the patent).

Hung.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:08 pm 
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I used to think that I have the perfect procedure when rigging.
I was wrong. I have rigged the kite with crossed lines more than once.
I m lucky and I have noticed this checking up before launching.

Last month two guys that I know, has severe accidents at Cabarete from crossed lines. Both has ended their kiting vacations with various fractures. It could be worse, much worse.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:31 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles, California
Quote:
"Hung" wrote:
If you want instantaneous AOA control while riding unhooked...


No thanks. I prefer riding hooked in. I just need to find a way to make it safer to launch & land (either unhooking somehow, or a bar-activated release).

Quote:
A FREE BAR is NOT free as you are connected to it.


For over three years we've been using the term "free bar" to mean a bar that's free of the front lines. That means your harness has to be connected to the front lines. You are not connected to the bar (only the front lines).

Quote:
A 3-D bar is fully FREE as you can hook in or unhook...


But either hooked or unhooked it will not give the same great kite control feeling as a free bar (by it's well-established definition).

I suggest not to try to re-define "free bar" as a bar which is free of the HARNESS, or it will create confusion for anybody who's been using "free" to mean "free of the front lines" for the last 3 years.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:47 pm 
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bragnouff wrote:
Quote:
Remember that when you setup your bar downwind to your kite, you have to invert your bar. And this is the same kind of situation that occurs when you untwist your lines when the kite is leading edge of the water. (but now you are upwind to your kite, and it takes wind). Clear color codes are very helpful in that case !


:?: Okay, I'm a newbie. Can you explain the reason for this?

I just tried to draw it out and it still looks like if I'm rigging down-wind,
belly of the kite facing up, I'd attach the red/left line to the left side of the kite with a non-inverted bar. When I go to launch position I'm still holding the bar non-inverted with the red line on the left. ?

To date I've only had 2 lessons and I do remember the instructor having me invert the bar once when doing a water launch...

Thanks,
-todd


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:26 pm 
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Yes, belly-up is the way to go (which is what I meant in my earlier post). Just make sure you use PLENTY of sand on the tip, & lay the kite out more downwind than across (so a wind shift won't flip it over, & also so you don't have to walk the bar all the way from straight downwind to the launch-point across the wind).


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:54 pm 
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For those, like me, who detach their lines from the kite between sessions
here's a way to reduce the chance of crossed lines: In addition to marking
the pigtails and brake lines at the kite end (red=left, green=right) I carry
a short length of leader rope (about 6-inches) with four knots in it - one at
each end and the other two closer in to the center. One of the end knots
is colored red, the other green.

When I de-rig the lines I start with the left (red) brake line and transfer
the larkshead onto the red knot. Then the front lines go onto the two
middle knots (doesn't really matter which way round) then the right brake
line (green) goes onto the green knot. Now when winding the lines onto
and off the bar they may twist together but it's much less likely they will
get crossed (it probably could happen though if you let the roped ends fall
between the lines)

When rigging the next time, before I unwind the lines from the bar I
transfer the larksheads from the knotted rope to the kite in the same
order* as I transfered them from kite to rope.

This is no substitute for thoroughly checking after connecting and laying
out the lines( I like to walk them out at least one each way--bar to kite,
then kite to bar--before launching) but it does improve you chances of
getting it right first time.

*One variation I may make to the rigging order (if launching in a different
direction than the previous time) only applies to the front lines; I have the
front line that is attached to the leash marked black at the kite end. I
always put this black front line on the upwind tip. This ensures a
cleaner 'flagging' of the kite if I have to deploy the leash during launch, as
the freed tip does not have to drag itself out from under the kite, and the
lift generated by wind over the skin of the flagging kite is downward
instead of upward, which helps to hold down the leashed kite and prevent
spinning.

Steve T.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:39 pm 
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Location: uk
I feel the bottom line is the same as climbing -

.....and I know some hard arsed guy will come back at me (nothing gay intended ) :oops:

but we all have off days and all rush

the best bet is to have a "buddy" double check - even with a system the last little beer may have clouded your judgement :-?

or the big grin factor combined with tide coming in make us a little more anxious than usual :D

and we make mistakes... its just my thoughts but ... climbing, parachuting and other very technical sports have been around a bit longer and accidents wil happen :o


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:21 am 
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I will not ride again without a bar-activated release, & I will never again fly at zenith for even a moment (if it happens accidentally I will release immediately, hopefully before there's a chance for me to get lofted).
--- Mel
Quote:

I agree with Mel's comments here. Any thoughts on the best bar activated quick release system? I have read about the Ocean Rodeo "punch-out" system. Anyone using it or other commercially available system?


This is my first season kitesurfing and I was out last night taking another lesson. Just before sunset, I was putting my gear away while my instructor was rushing to get in a quick session of his own before dark. Someone assisted him launching but he was having problems. He tried to launch once or twice and then the assistant noticed his lines were crossed!! Sounds like rushing things to get out there is a huge risk factor....

Doug


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:13 am 
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Location: Los Angeles, California
Quote:
"Sierrawells" wrote:
I agree with Mel's comments here. Any thoughts on the best bar activated quick release system?


Upon Hung reminding me that a "three dimensional" bar can provide instantaneous Angle of Attack control while unhooked, I may need to revise my statement to say I'll never launch HOOKED IN without a bar-activated release. As for which is best, I'm pretty sure that since Ocean Rodeo's is patented, there are no others yet on the market. I'd been considering* simply adding a removable release line from the bar to a Wichard 2673 or a sliding-tube (bent pin) "snapped" to the spreader. The release line would be removed for riding (leaving a conventional release ball) & installed for launching & landing. I'd actually prefer to make the unhooked system work, because it's even quicker to simply let go of the bar than to "punch out" from a bar-activated release.

*& may still need to, if I can't figure out how to launch with my free bar unhooked.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:03 pm
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Quote:
No thanks. I prefer riding hooked in. I just need to find a way to make it safer to launch & land (either unhooking somehow, or a bar-activated release).


Danger can be everywhere on the water too: boat, rock, swimmer, windsurfers, etc.; the ability to temporarily ride unhooked in questionable situations should be available for all kitesurfers. If you kiteskii or kitesnowboard, the danger can be anywhere.

Quote:
But either hooked or unhooked it will not give the same great kite control feeling as a free bar (by it's well-established definition).



Have you ever tried a 3-D bar extensively? I have found that with a 3-D bar, I can feel the kite better (with a rock solid feeling) instead of the loosy feeling with a free bar.

Hung.


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