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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 11:47 pm 
Well, first of all DP Dacron seems to be the strongest and best material for LE if I may quote mr.TRUTH. Yes, it might be so if we look at regular dacron/=polyster, but pentex is a new polyester fiber (and dacron is also a polyester fiber) that has 50% less strech then dacron, it's from Allied Signal/Honeywell. So get that and you get the best. FACT. (yes, much better then DP dacron) (film/taffeta laminate materials="polyfuse" could be even better if it works..)

And back to Gaastra, well, get a Manic windsurfingsail and use it and tell me it's light constructed...
And guess from where they get their X-ply? Ooops, Dimension Sailcloth!! Got you there didn't I ???

And regarding Naish I guess they have "Polyfuse" in their LE. That is dacron and mylar (wich is monofilm) fused together.
Mylar is a very good thing, it's much more tensionstrong that any dacron, but you have to make it not delaminate! Hard thing over time... When water enters the dacron side, and when it's exposed to sun it can start cooking and it could then deliminate.
The "polyfuse" is just a better way of fusing the mylar and dacron together.
So, if the naish "polyfuse"=film/taffeta laminate materials don't delaminate then it's much more tension strong then any dacron, and YES, much more tensionstrong that Dimenstion Dacron. FACT.

Gaastra is made in the gaastra fabric.

Cabrinha is made in the Pryde fabric.

North and Naish in the North fabric.(sri lanka)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 11:48 pm 
Dear "TRUTH",

I'm not sure what your source of information is but you should check your facts before posting such strong statements...

FACT: Gaastra has been testing their new high performance kites in the Gorge and did their final, production model testing in Cabarete last week. Kitesurfing.de, locals and tourists all got a chance to try the various sizes in a wide range of wind conditions and the response was overwhelmingly positive. ALL were impressed by their performance and quality. Word spread quickly and people were lining up to test them!

FACT: I tested and flew the 10 and 12 meter kites. I watched the kites for one week. I personally did not see any signs of jellyfishing. Perhaps you saw a prototype?

FACT: Gaastra kites are made with GG4 Dacron, proprietary to them and used for many years in their windsurf sails. It is a superior grade dacron, of equal or greater quality than DP dacron. Source is Japan, not Taiwan if it matters.

FACT: Gaastra kites are made of ripstock polyester, not nylon, of the highest quality available from Teijin.

FACT: The new Gaastra kites exceed industry standards, are made of high quality materials, and do not jellyfish as you described. RE: being a parasite, do not all the manufacturers basically take what is good, and improve upon the designs, safety, etc? Are all kite mfgs parasites of Bruno?

FYI, I do have a commercial interest in Gaastra as Kitexcite will be representing the brand when the new kites are released in September. We also carry other brands including North, F.one, Brunotti, daKine, Airush (accessories) and Pro-Limit.

regards from Cabarete,

Marina
Kitexcite


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 11:53 pm 
Dear "TRUTH":

Since you seem to know the "TRUTH", how come you do not sign your name?

If you are such an expert, please let us know. How can you say that others lie?

According to you, you say who you are, but you do not:

"But since everyone, minus Toby and myself did post anonymously, I will have a hard time replying to each and keeping you up to speed WHICH response I am speaking of."

Why do these forums always have to degenerate into mudslinging?

-Lorraine


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:00 am
Posts: 29009
Location: World (KF Admin)
Hi Lorraine,

the forums are used by so many people withn different opinions and interests. So it is normal that there are differences.
And this is ok, as long as there are no personal attacks. Very important is that we all try to post something that is the truth. And if "Truth" believes in what he writes there might be a possibility (or maybe it really is) that he writes the truth about it. I guess he knows something, otherwise he wouldn't write stuff like this. So we have an information with which we can decide what we think about it and may react on this. Maybe we should have a closer look at the materials and shouldn't support someone who tries to rip us off. I don't want to be ripped off and I don't like others to be ripped off.
So we should discuss about it, but have to base it on facts and not rumors.

And nobody likes mud, so keep it clean guys!

Thx
Toby


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 13
Sorry to offend you Marina. I think I do have my facts straight. But I honestly do hope for YOUR sake that I don't since you choose to invest in them. I also think that I am not going to set here and spend anymore time trying to prove my points against yours. Your 'FACTS' are totally contradictory to what I said, and your facts are probably coming to you straight from a Gaastra rep. My TRUTH's have been looked up, looked into, cross referenced and satisfied myself as being TRUTHS.

Yes, Gaastra is made of polyester. BUT, Gaastra produces their OWN polyester. Think what you will. And it is NOT of superior grade. Gaastra also produces their OWN GG4 Dacron, but I beg to differ on it's superiority. Again, I hope for your sake that I am wrong, but I have a feeling that time will tell.

And IF naish doesn't come apart....well, that's a big IF at this point now isn't it? Let's all go buy a kite and hope that it holds up.

I have no doubt Marina that people are impressed with their performance and quality as it appears, but that doesn't mean that it isn't produced with inferior products.

Gaastra kites are also NOT manufactured in the same plant as Naish kites as someone said earlier. They are produced by Windlock. Kinda funny that Naish is made in a plant with other brand, as is takoon, Slingshot, Airrush and others, and Gaastra is the ONLY one being made at Windlock. It's a windsurf sail and windsurfboard plant.

And to the final anonymous post...Lorraine. This is not mudslinging. It was never meant to be. This IS a kite forum for discussing kites and that is what I was doing. Would it really make you feel better if I signed a name to my posts? VERY Well then, I can do that just as well as you do.

And finally, I have decided to NOT post the post about "What is your kite made of?" since this has almost begun to turn into a spitting match.

I wouldn't want to risk offending any of you any further. I took my time to share with you some things I know about some kite companies. For this I guess I am a bad guy to you. But you are just one person, and some seem to show interest in it. BUT, I shall stop now. I will keep the secrets that the kite companies try to hide from you a secret. Go out and learn the sad truth on your own. Go out and buy all the Gaastra kites that your hearts content with. DO IT. Make yourself happy. It means nothing to me which kite brand you buy. But a few months AFTER you get your Gaastra's going, I have a feeling that ME and THIS thread is going to be coming back into your mind.

This TRUTH brought to you by,

-Lorrainey


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 2:28 am 
Mr Truth,

Thanks for sharing your research. I've been collecting facts myself. He is some dish I have. It is true the paraglider factory that makes most of the kites is very private and protective of the brands made there. They will not share information about the other kites they make. A designer must tell them what to use. They offer no help.

I know a story of one designer that wanted the factory to make battens exclusive to his brand. The factory said no!

I've heard some brands are completely inflated and let sit overnight to make sure they don't leak. Not all brands are leak tested like this.

The factory is big enough to stretch line sets out 30m and preload them before cutting to size. The factory is 3 stories high.

Naish is not in the Wipika, North, Slingshot, Airush factory. I heard this second hand from a guy who was there.

A lot of thought has gone into how to make Dacron hold up in kites. The material will stretch out and become soft when old. The choice of Dacron is very important. How it's installed is important too. Ken Winner has installed the bias of the dacron in a way he believes will reduce stretch and prolong the life of North kites. Naish believes polyfuse is the way to go, or do they? I'm not buying the spin they put on why the X2 is Dacron. If polyfuse is great, the x2 should be made from it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 2:28 am 
Dear Toby,

Thank you for your post. I appreciate what you have to say, but mr TRUTH does not speak from knowledge, it is obvious.

salut,
Lorraine (sans Y)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 2:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 1:00 am
Posts: 1113
Dear Truth,

We shall see the quality of the kites. Two of our staff are sponsored by Gaastra so they will be used everyday in various conditions. For durability of kites, Cabarete is a perfect testing ground! I did not mean to imply that you were untruthful... just didn't know where you got your facts from or if you were making observations from a prototype. My facts are direct from R&D at Gaastra, not a rep repeating marketing hype, so I feel that what I said is factual.

RE: durability, I have seen kites from many mfgs disintegrate for no apparent reason other than hitting the water including those made from "superior" grade materials. This includes the brands that you mentioned and many others. I have seen kites that should by all rights be in pieces when wave upon wave crashes on them in the reef. So.... what can we determine from this?

Opinions, knowledge and observations are important and should be shared. So share away but be prepared to be challenged!

best regards,
Marina


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:27 am 
I know that Naish is not made with those other brands. I was saying that Naish is produced in a factory with ANOTHER brand.

Anyway, it is fair enough to expect to be challenged. I should expect it when dealing with a group of this size and this many thoughts. Not to mention people like Lorraine taking shots at me every time she brings her little fingers to the keyboard.

If you don't have anything nice to say....

TRUE


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:00 am
Posts: 29009
Location: World (KF Admin)
well, we don't get one opinion here, which is ok.
Time will tell who is using cheap materials and who not. Let's hope they all use good materials.

The good thing is: you can choose what you want to buy! :wink:

Let's go out and have fun again!

Toby


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