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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:07 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-08-21 13:12, kitegenossen.ch wrote:
sorry jever 98
if you dont know the local (political) problems, dont shout over the school. there is only one official entry to the water.
a lot of kiters dont accept the local rules (showed on "surfboards" around the spot), so the riders are the problem and not the school!!


.... but the school doesn't car to much about others too. They start their kites inbetween 10 other kites waiting to go to the water. Furtheron they teached bodydraging in between the racing- area while the Windsurfing- guys tried to win a worldcup! That's not really good style! It would make me wonder if the WorlCup- Guys will not try to forbid Kitesurfing during the worldcup next year.

Greetzzzz,

Louis


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:12 pm 
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sounds like the total chaos....


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:16 pm 
Austria, Germany, Switzerland, USA, Spain, etc, different Places, same Problems - Kiteboarding is a sport that needs responsible acting intelligent indiviuals and seems to attract the exact opposite.

I am often shocked how stupid and unreflected people act in a complex and sometimes (near land) dangerous sport like kiteboarding.

To countersteer at least locally we put together the kite-info initiative on psn.at, page impression numbers are quite high, but the overall impact is not so high due to the fact that the industry is not interested in promoting safe kiteboarding (obviously average consumers dont want to think and act with a certain amount of discipline, and a sport which requires thinking and a little bit of discipline therefore attracts less people....) so the industry countersteers (no matter if intended or not) - even former security oriented companies like flysurfer now switch to a more agressive high performance marketing approach in order to make the necessary money to run their business (and i dont blame them, they still act more responsible than most of their competitors together - no I dont fly flysurfer kites and no im not getting paid by them)

At least we (psn.at) contributed to convert the local "the closer to the beach you jump the better" attitude to a general "safety is cool" attitude - 60 to 80 % leashed kites compared to 1% leashed kites last year, but the basic problem remains the same:

Imagine a crowded ski resort slope, with all those irresponsible acting lemmings and transfer that picture to kiteboarding - then you see the sad future of our sport.

In wintersports on a "good" weekend you have numberous fatal injuries in europe - but its an accepted fact by the officials and the general public - money rules - fact !

Same sad thing (lots of injuries and deads) will happen to kiteboarding no matter if we like it or not.

unfortunately it seems that responsible acting people are getting a minority in this sport

The biggest idiots on the beach are very often self proclaimed pro kiters (beeing unemployed and performing kiteboarding doesnt result in a pro kiter - but thats another story ,-) and the general public tends to follow those media + industry generated role models.

So what to do ?

IQ Tests for kiteboarders ? Armed Kitepolice ? Numberplates on the Kites ?

This sounds ugly to you ? You dont like these visions ? Then I suggest we all start to act !

Brainless kiters act agressive, so we need to act agressive too - HOW ? I have no Idea, we all successfully tried to adress intelligent people - but unfortunately their total percantage in the sport is decreasing - so how to adress stupid individuals (they dont inform themselfs acvtively, they need to be informed couch potatoe style....

I have no idea, do you guys ?

Free kitelessons with topless beer maids with the purchase of any kitesurfkite ?

or....

Greetings to all those who think and act

Paul


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:26 pm 
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good points Paul.
I have no idea what to do.
Maybe the license is the only way?
Sad, if we can't take of ourselves.

Kiting with leash is very important, than "distance is your friend" and frindly being together with respect should bring a lot.

Anything else?

Toby


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:30 pm 
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Hi Paul,

i have been quite impressed by your excellent work to keep kiting legal and safe on lake neusiedel (and pleased by our talk when waitign for less wind :wink:). Keep on fighting! You might not see progress but my feeling was, that people (as a crowd) in Breitbrunn have been acting quite more responsible than on other spots. People forced a guy who didn't secured his kite on the beach and lost it twice to stop this bullshit quite encouraged. I hardly have seen things like that on other spots.
See you on lake neusiedl,

Markus aka Louis


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:43 pm 
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Personally, my impression is that it only works if there is a group of locals, who are accepted as an authority on the beach, who set some simple rules and enforce them. Of course, you can try to influence people in a positive way even when you only visit.

But if you try to force people to be more careful on the beach and you are just a visitor, you run the risk of being kicked-out yourself.

So if there is someone who is a local from Silvaplana and reading this, it would be greatly appreciated if you could try to influence some key people on the beach to give everybody who acts like an irresponsible idiot a good kick up the arse.

And if he refuses / does it again, cut his lines.

The longer I kite, the more I get the impression you have to be very strict and even aggressive against idiots.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 3:40 pm 
Quote:
On 2002-08-21 16:30, Louis Cypher wrote:
Hi Paul,

i have been quite impressed by your excellent work to keep kiting legal and safe on lake neusiedel (and pleased by our talk when waitign for less wind :wink:). Keep on fighting! You might not see progress but my feeling was, that people (as a crowd) in Breitbrunn have been acting quite more responsible than on other spots. People forced a guy who didn't secured his kite on the beach and lost it twice to stop this bullshit quite encouraged. I hardly have seen things like that on other spots.
See you on lake neusiedl,

Markus aka Louis


thks for the encuraging words Markus, but I did not speak only for Lake Neusiedl where we (a small group of kiters who use their brains) have been able to convert the general kiters attitude from cool hotshot who gives a shit about his surrounding to mostly responsible acting sportspeople, BUT the problem is that only ONE Idiot can ruin it for a lot of kiters - as it happened in Breitenbrunn - due to a few idiots who kited in the swimmer zone and especially one dork (from salzburg and on his first visit there..) who crashed his kite into two anchored (!!) Sailboats inside the sailboat harbour (!!!) and broke two masts...

Now 2 years of positive lobbying are whiped away by a general ban on this beach - and the same will happen in a lot of other locations around the World.

In my opinion a licence is not the answer because you cannot learn safe kiteboarding in a 2 day course (especially if you are "not the sharpest knive in the drawer") - BUT unfortunately 200 EUR seems to be the max amount people are willing to hand out for initial instruction - the snake bites its tail here....

In fact I do have no answer, because I tried the only approach that could have worked (self regulation, self responsibility etc.. within the kiting community) - but this requires intelligent People - and it seems there are not too many of them around....

Plus: as the sport gets more accessible due to better (easier to use for the average person) equipement the more unqualified people - I do not mean it in an arrogant way (e.g. I will never be good playing an instrument due to lack of talent), but I think a lot of people are not mentally and physically ready for a very complex and multidimensional (moving body, moving kite, moving air) sport like kiteboarding.

BUT they will get into the sport - I remember my time as a snowboard trainer in St Anton/Arlberg (ritzy ski area in austria) when People who where so untrained that they could not get up when sitting in the snow with the board on (no stomach muscles at all) but desperately tried to learn snowboarding because "it looks so cool" - they paid with broken arms, bloody faces, bruises etc., but in kiteboarding it can be much worse (also for bystanders) - the wind is a beast you cant tame, but most people are not aware of that fact....

Nowadays I feel fear when I see this bunch of wannabe sportsman with their large powerkites which they are not able to control and I simply decided to quit kiteboarding on summer weekends because I really feel personally endangered by those idiots - the result is one guy less on the beach who cares about safety....and if the trend (kiteboarding attracts nobrainers) continues many of the kiteboarding pioneers will follow and only ride abroad or during off season - and this will lead to more and more accidents, closed beaches and a lot of communities banning kiteboarding.

Paul

PS: one last comment - guys and girls reading this forum, please DONT BE OFFENDED by the statements above, YOU are acting intelligent YOU are informing yourself actively, its those people who do not inform themselfs about the sport who cause the troubles - buying a kite and a board definately doesnt make a kiteboarder !


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:34 am 
Quote:

is tehre nothing you can do to keep your access by requiring a license like used at some spots in Florida?
And if some rides don't behave, don't give them a license. Then you have to play police, but better than not kiting, isn't it?

Toby


no way! license is not the answer in my opinion. we like to live in a free world, yet we continue to give the authorities the authority to make us have license and permits and others to do even simple things like go fishing. its rediculous.

i don't see the licnese solution being used in miami (at only one laucnh that I am aware of) as being any sort of an answer at all. kitesurfing was baned at a park in florida called howard park just as it was at crandon park (where the license is required now). 2 different approaches were used at both parks and both produced different results. in miami, they chose to fight the ban, they chose to get the authorities involved, create organizations, raise public and officials awareness and are now being forced to police themselves or be policed because of it. fine. ok, that works for them, but maybe others dont like that. i dont think their approach produced favorable results. i also think this approach may have spawned as many or more problems for them as it solved.

at the howard park ban, it went diffrent. when they banned kitesurfing from howard park, the kitesurfers around there learned from the instance and turned and walked away. they chose not to fight, they chose not to raise the brows of the officials, they chose not to try to make a license required to ride there. they just walked away. they walked with the knowledge, suffered the loss, and passed the knowledge on to other fellow kitesurfers to avoid it again in the future. alot of people would agree that this approach yielded much more favorable results. this approach has not seen any further bans in that area(that i know of) or any further public officals being involved. no license required, no clubs to have to pay to enter, no streamers to buy, no kitesurf police.

alot of what is going on in miami and what may yet to happen there may very have been brought onto themselves by their positive action approach. sure it sounds real good to listen to and talk about, and it makes some guys look nice and responsible, it may even look good on paper, but it may also be a very wrong approach that may yield very bad results. too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing. the proper approach i guess, is still kind of like kiteboarding itself. that is, it's still going through major developments, trial and error, and even a little experimintation.

as far as kitesurfing schools fixing everything, they cant. but kitesurfing schools and instructors can and do have a very large influence on how kiteboarding is handled and approached in their area. like it or not. if kitesurfing is approached properly, and instruction is mandatory for all beginner kitesurf kite buyers, then most of the people on the water there will have the same knowledge and be thinking along the same lines. the few that dont go through the lessons, or come from other areas are soon made aware by all the others of how kitesurfing is being done in that area. this system works for most places. i see it first hand when i go out ridign. even areas with alot of riders, you just have to get them all thinking alike, and right! someplaces, like DR, where they have so many visitors from abroad may have a valid arguemant about getting everyone to follow suit, but for the most part it works elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 7:01 am 
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Location: Switzerland,
Being Swiss, this last weekend for the first time in my life I wanted to try kitesurfing in Switzerland and I went also to Silvaplana. What a great spot,
Image
but what a mess with all those kiters launching and landing without any kind of flight traffic controle system (Skyguide)….



Image
The lake is surrounded by a walkway and a 2 m strip of rocks


Image
This is where our cabarete kid had his hard landing and crashed his femur (Jumping to close to the beach in side-onshore gusty wind condition.


Image
He was extremely lucky and his leg was fixed nicely in the nearby "bodyshop".


Image
When I went to visit him in the hospital I found this in the hallway in front of his room…kind of funny but scary and it makes you think twice….

Well, I am sure Stefan Popprath (Kiteschool) and local authorities could make this spot less dangerous and should setup a few minor “regulationâ€


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:07 pm 
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Location: Switzerland
Everybody is thinking the same about Silvaplana I guess. Wonderfull Spot but to crowded! Hopefully it's just in the summer holiday time....


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