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 Post subject: @fokiten
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:04 pm
Posts: 8
you are not to wrong, but whats about these guys I always have to teach, who book a kitelesson, never ever have taken a kite in their hands, and yust think that works like tennis....
maybee the question is - what should a good beginner do before he books a kitecourse?


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 Post subject: Re: @fokiten
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:08 pm 
toyflish wrote:
you are not to wrong, but whats about these guys I always have to teach, who book a kitelesson, never ever have taken a kite in their hands, and yust think that works like tennis....
maybee the question is - what should a good beginner do before he books a kitecourse?


we make-um watch,,,land kites,,,be launch holders,, just basiclly have them hang around,,, and we talk about what the riders are doing out there
how or why,,,but mostly show /tell them what not to do,,then they need to score the boat to get us to do a training day,,,them we get like 5 or six going and run around relaunching and laughing our asses off,,they get serious water time and learn heeps in a few hours,,
Hey,, the only guy to get hurt was taking a beach lesson from an """instructor""",, he is now banned from teaching at our spot.
water rules
fo


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:42 pm 
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Location: World (KF Admin)
we don't need to talk about using bigger kites in water.
We should never play with big kites on the beach.

But I know that you already can get the first feeling from flying a kite at the beach which will help you flying a bigger kite later.
You get to know where the kite has the most power and where it doesn't.

So pls don't tell us that using a small trainer kite at the beach won't help anything, it does help a lot!

Toby


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 1:59 am 
Toby wrote:
we don't need to talk about using bigger kites in water.
We should never play with big kites on the beach.

But I know that you already can get the first feeling from flying a kite at the beach which will help you flying a bigger kite later.
You get to know where the kite has the most power and where it doesn't.

So pls don't tell us that using a small trainer kite at the beach won't help anything, it does help a lot!

Toby


Hi Toby,
I can not indorse trainner kites, I have more than a few reasons not to,,
You however, as everyone else on this forum do have the right to think what you will,

I'll only say that you must learn to fly a real kite in order to kite surf, and add that I truley beleive the beach is not the place to learn how to handle a real kite.
That is what I believe.

If you wish to learn to fly a trainner kite the crowded beach again is not the best place to learn, too many people there to get cut by lines.
new flyers are out of control most all the time.

Thanks for your post and thanks for hosting this forum
fokiten


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:09 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2614
Location: Mauritius, waterman since 1960
Hi Fokiten.
Your last message to Toby is the best mail you have posted yet.
I can at last understand what you are saying, and even agree on some parts.
Thanks for contributing.
Nico


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:18 pm 
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Posts: 234
I have a lot of respect for Fokiten and what he's saying but i just have one concern. How do you teach a person who's never in their life flown a kite, to fly it correctly without a trainer. I mean you could take him in the water and all, but he'll be crashing it like crazy im sure - unless you are relaunching it via that boat i see it's kind of difficult for him to learn.

That'd be cool if you WERE relauching it as he messed up then it would be perfect - even better than a trainer.

In my opinion a trainer kite is useful to learn how to TURN the kite - many people come from many years of driving and they cant break the habit- usually 30 minutes to an hour on a trainer to learn how to turn is not time wasted.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:48 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2717
Location: Retailer/distributor
Fokiten
You contradict yourself constantly, thats true :!:
You seem to have 20 cups of coffee then make posts that no-one fully understands, thats true. :o
You have strong passion for kiteboarding (not kites in general) and have issues with safety, thats true. :thumb:
You post a lot, and are not a man of a few words, thats true. :!:
And a lot of what you post is angry, confusing BS, thats true. :cry:
There is the BIG TRUTH, but that is not for this forum, then there is ordinary, personal truth, and what is true for you is not necessarily true for the next person (your truth, is in your beliefs), I hope you come to learn that one day, then you will demonstrate more tolerence, and post in a different, more respectful, open minded way, maybe? :idea:

A good instructor is someone who passionately wants to share the joy of kiteboarding with a student passing on both the dangers and the tips that will potentially save a life. The majority of good instructors are IKO trained, this leads to standardisation, and increased safety for us all.
IKO teach to talk less and demonstrate more, emphsizing the psychology ot teaching and learning more through observation, positive reinforcement, and clear communications with as much time as possible spent hands on flying small kites (short lines at first) at first, leading to larger inflatos and then the lessons progress to the water. Safety is covered from the very start, the less talking the instructor does during the hands on part of the lessons the better!

Trainer kites are not BS, they are REAL kites, they are the CORRECT way for all people that have never flown kites, to get their basic flying skills. This sport is 80+% kite flying skills, especially initially, that is the TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!
Anything else is BS!

How else can you safely learn the wind window, learn how the wind behaves, learn how to manage kites, and lines?
Every trainer kite we have ever sold (tens of thousands over the last 12 years!!!!) comes with FREE lessons, and every person is told and shown where to fly that kite too, safely! They are also told to respect the space of other people.

It is totally unessecary for an instructor, to a big jumping super capable trick pulling athlete! However a good school will have at least one person who is in that category to do advanced coaching (no longer called lessons, because the person is now at the skill level to be self teaching, but in need of hints and encouragement).
Initially, the instructor is only teaching how to ride across the wind and go upwind, possibly touching on jumping, so why do they need to know how to do a toeside takeoff, 30' double backloop, with kite loop to blind landing?
None at all, of course!
Get real, get a trainer kite, fly it a lot, then get a kiteboarding specific lesson(s), before buying any gear, thats the best advice you can give any prospective kite boarder.

Cya and Goodwinds
Steve McCormack
IKO Rep in Australia
http://www.ikorg.com
australia@ikorg.com.au



fokiten wrote:
mutant wrote:
fokiten,

The idea of using the services of an instrutor is to help you avoid the pain that the early kitesurfers went through. Also to speed the learning curve and avoid the potential dangers to yourself and others.

I agree that less talking is good because most people dont listen but take in far more by experience but a certain amount of verbal is necessary.

Perhaps you are lucky enough to be a natural at this sport but for the vast majority who are not, to just be dumped in the water with a potential killing machine is totally irresponsible.


Now look here,,,
I am a man of few words, as such I lay out the entire subject in a paragraph or less. usually less,,

The above objections dismissed as follows:

If you use the bar like a steering wheel NOTHING happens, so fuck beach training.

Beach trainig is for Instructors not students.

The kite power is minimized by your body dragging the water,,on land you have to run to get this shock abosbing benift,, fuck beach training
Beach trainig comes after kite control is achieved by hours in the water,,

Killing Machine,,,,,,,exactly,,,the water is the ONLY place to start,,
fuck beach training>>>$$$$ for instructors<<<>>>no useful lessons for student kitesurfing has NOTHING to do with itty bitty lightning fast dangerious to other people on the beach string weapons,,
TRUTH,,
get it????
The thing you forum posters cannot get around is that I know what Im talking about,,you don't like it,,,But tough shit you can not suprise me,, you can call me names but you can not fault my arguments because I know what I'm talking about,, and I do not Bull-shit..
I post the whole truth,,and you are deffenceless against it,,
Sweet God in heaven,,
fikiten


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:06 am 
Kolahi wrote:
I have a lot of respect for Fokiten and what he's saying but i just have one concern. How do you teach a person who's never in their life flown a kite, to fly it correctly without a trainer. I mean you could take him in the water and all, but he'll be crashing it like crazy im sure - unless you are relaunching it via that boat i see it's kind of difficult for him to learn.

That'd be cool if you WERE relauching it as he messed up then it would be perfect - even better than a trainer.

In my opinion a trainer kite is useful to learn how to TURN the kite - many people come from many years of driving and they cant break the habit- usually 30 minutes to an hour on a trainer to learn how to turn is not time wasted.


Good news Kol,,
That is exactly what we do relaunch, relaunch, relaunch, and laugh our asses off,, scream out stroke the kite,,,feel the love,, you would be suprized how fast people learn not to crash , we hook a life jacket to a leash ,, as soon as they are stroken good we have them do board trainig,,,
one hand on the bar,,,get the life jacket put one foot on ,, then the other,,
seady steady,, like that thats how we do it,,
Fun day,, beer laughs,,stoked newbeis,,
fo

ps, steve ask any body? I do not read long posts
If ya want to commune with me you gotta keep it short,,
fuck off ,,, just in case,,go jiggle pinky


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 3:36 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2717
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You crack me up mate!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
You like to talk about jiggling the pinky, you must be an expert at it, good for you!
I know why you can't read long posts, but you really should get help for that mate you are missing some good stuff that would help you give better lessons!
:bye: :bye: :bye: :bye: :bye: :bye:


fokiten wrote:
Kolahi wrote:
I have a lot of respect for Fokiten and what he's saying but i just have one concern. How do you teach a person who's never in their life flown a kite, to fly it correctly without a trainer. I mean you could take him in the water and all, but he'll be crashing it like crazy im sure - unless you are relaunching it via that boat i see it's kind of difficult for him to learn.

That'd be cool if you WERE relauching it as he messed up then it would be perfect - even better than a trainer.

In my opinion a trainer kite is useful to learn how to TURN the kite - many people come from many years of driving and they cant break the habit- usually 30 minutes to an hour on a trainer to learn how to turn is not time wasted.


Good news Kol,,
That is exactly what we do relaunch, relaunch, relaunch, and laugh our asses off,, scream out stroke the kite,,,feel the love,, you would be suprized how fast people learn not to crash , we hook a life jacket to a leash ,, as soon as they are stroken good we have them do board trainig,,,
one hand on the bar,,,get the life jacket put one foot on ,, then the other,,
seady steady,, like that thats how we do it,,
Fun day,, beer laughs,,stoked newbeis,,
fo

ps, steve ask any body? I do not read long posts
If ya want to commune with me you gotta keep it short,,
fuck off ,,, just in case,,go jiggle pinky


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 688
Interesting views guys.
In our area very light winds are the norm. We have had many people who never learned kite skills on the beach and are constant rescues for us not just on the water but in the launching and landing process. Using apparent wind in our very light wind to get back to shore is mandatory. First a small trainer kite and then these skills are developed in 6 mph winds with a small traction kite ON THE BEACH. Yeah I said it. We use arcs mostly at this stage as they fly very well in the light stuff and depower completely when droped to leash. You add the varialbes of the water and you have real trouble with a new bee. I have taught hundreds upon hundreds of lessons and we teach on beaches when there are not people in danger of our lines or the students kite. Student is wearing a leash and an instructor is holding onto the back of the harness. By taking lots of precautions the inevitable single screw up in hundreds of lessons won't hurt anyone. The trainer kite is mandatory as the steering wheel habit people have must be broken to mention only one tiny part it helps with. If they pull in on one side of the wheel and then just turn it your are right Foikiten, nothing happens but the kite completing the orginal accidental input turn and slamming into the ground with lots of force. This is done on a tiny trainer kite that wont hurt anyone on the aformentioned safe beach area. Beach skills are mandatory. Those that come from the stunt kite flying backgrounds learn much quicker than other students. This is no accident. Read any neuro physiological text. It is the development of brain to muscle pathways that make a physical process easier with repetition. The steering part, using the proper part of the window. Working the entire neutral zone, walking the kite over the water and a butt load of other skills are learned with a trainer. Most students want to know why the kite is doing what it is doing in basic terms, power zone, neutral etc, besides it being mandatory to explain all this and have them prove they can demonstrate all these skills prior to moving to a larger kite size. A true traction kite of small size that is similar to what that student will eventually be flying is key after the trainer phase. Jumping from trainer into large traction on the water is also a mistake. They have to learn to fly that kite first. We have a bunch of guys who thought this would be the ticket. They learned much more slowly and were constantly slamming their kites. You can't just throw a new kiak guy into a grade bazilion rapid. Learning to use the apparent wind to keep a true traction kite flying and not falling out of the sky in light winds will save rescues, get people to shore safely and to land and launch their kites with much more safety and confidence. It will also teach the student to properly use the entire wind window for power and where to put the kite in those light winds and later in higher winds on the water. Once again, guys who never took the time to learn to fly on the beach and were just constantly slamming their kites on the water and everywhere else either progessed very slowly, pissed everyone off, injured others, were injured themselfves, destroyed equipment, progressed very slowly (still trying to learn the basics and a danger to all six months later) or a combination of all of the above. Just handing someone a trainer kite with out explaining to them what skills to practice and why they are doing what they are doing is no where near as effective. There is a basic kite language and core of actual mechanical knowledge that must be passed on. Tossing someone on a four line kite and not telling them what the chicken loop does eliminates a whole part of the brain that says.."Should I pull in or out...Don't know...ooops!!" The dangerous people needed to take lessons but had way too large of an ego. You can learn this sport by yourself as we did way back when but most of these dangers can be limited with lessons and now the possiblity of clossing it to all of us do to the learners mistakes and possible injuries is not acceptible. So you know. Lifeguard organizaitons want to see step by step instruction for all flyers. (Most lifeguard complaints are of advanced guys showing off and endangering bathers or doing a trick too near shore and dropping the kite on sun bathers not with students learning who are usually a bit more curtious) We have done trainer and traction kite work on the beach to show the guards the potential of our kites and they see the necessity of the learning the basics on land process. (Light winds) Just tossing someone straight into the water is throwing too many variables into the learning process. We hold the back of the harness and body drag with students when they are at the point where they have very good kite control and are not trying to spread their focus on waves, kite etc.
When you have taught for five years then you will have a tad more insight into what does and what does not work in light or heavy winds. Perhaps Foiketen is an instuctor at a perfect 20 mph shallow water lake with no beach and with lifeguards offering to rescue all his students for free and the guards won't close the area if they have to rescue too many people from the water with kites and take time from their regular duties. Must be nice. I live in the reality of finding open sand areas to teach or not teach at all and then only water lessons if the wind is not too strong and or gusty. It's about the variables and the best instructor is the one who knows the local conditions very, very well and takes the time to find what works best for that individual student. If they won't listen. They are not going to be my student. Students who do learn quickly listen. Anyone so arogant to think the kite is just a toy to play with and can hop in themselves, having been advised of the dangers is a detriment to all of us. They can go learn to bowl instead. They sell beer there, all conform with the same shoes and smoke cigaretes while they show off for each other in a closed environment...Perfect!!!!!Dead of cancer and liver cirrhosis and off of our beaches. Good point on eliminating the ego kiters Foikiten! Good part is that my favorite wave spot is out of public view so these guys don't like to hang there even when it is good.
Have Fun. Traig :thumb:


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