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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:37 am
Posts: 330
Location: Wilmington, NC
From an instructor- To find a good instructor rely on word of mouth from those who have taken lessons or know someone who took one. I bet everyone can think of a few good teachers they had in there lives, especially after having a chance to use what they learned. For safe instruction in water a jet-ski is a must, even in shallow water. As for beach instruction with a training kite- it's the cheapest, quickest, and safest way to learn 80% of what you need to know about kiteboarding. Though I agree, the immediate beach area where training is taking place should be empty of people. As for instructors making $$$$, I have instructed and coached just about every sport for two decades now, and come from a family of teachers, and I have yet to hear or see of many of these $$$$. Certainly there are a few instructors and teachers that do it for $$$$, but I guarantee most do it for love of the sport and people.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 11:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:45 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Barrancos, Portugal
In my opinion, a good instructor is someone that has:
- Dedication to the students (don't leave them alone with the kites and go riding as i have seen a lot of them doing)
- Teach and practice the security basics:
- Condition analisys (wind strength and direction, downwind crowd/obstacles conditions)
- Equipment checkup
- Quick release usage and kite relaunch practice
- Focus on the basic and only important thing: ALWAYS KNOW WHERE THE KITE IS. F**k the board, your body, etc. IT IS THE KITE! T H E K I T E!
- Provoque one or two hiper-controlled hazards so that the student controls his "all this shit and this is so easy" temptation.
- To all of this, incute the principle: "in case of doubt: don't do it!"
- SimplyDON'T TEACH show-off type of riders: on the other day i broke a 3 month-old line in the middle of a jump. Imagine what could have happened if i was a show-off rider with the ideas like "let me jump in the 20cm water right next to that babe on the beach"...

I agree that to find one good instructor you have to go by word-of-mouth. Avoid the "i am so good and stylish and tough" type. They can be identified by not respecting the others on the water (beach people and riders).

About where to learn: basics on the beach and then water as much as possible.

Good learning!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 12:38 pm
Posts: 21
Fo,

I normally agree with you on many of your points.

But it is my opinion that you are WRONG on this one. Steve and Traig are closer to the truth this time.

I am from the school that an inexpensive trainer kite is one of the best investments in kitesurfing.

I am also from the school that a group lesson to get the basics and then one-on-one coaching to get to the next step is the very best way to safely and quickly develop basic kiteflying skills. I agree with you - trainer kites are fast and sketchy - non-crowded spots only.

I do think that taking beginners into the ocean and giving them a full-sized kite is a bad way to go. You are right that it freaks the beginner out just enough to learn to respect the kite (a very good thing). But the only reason this is happening is because the beginner is getting hauled around by this big kite, seemingly at random because they don't understand what is going on (a very bad thing). That sounds to me like an accident waiting to happen.

But I think we both agree that kitesurfing is pretty much always an accident waiting to happen, and the trick is to use your judgement and experience to talk your ego away from doing something REALLY stupid.

But beginners don't have any judgement or experience, only ego - so they need the help of those more experienced - hopefully good schools/instructors/locals.

Cheers,
Alan


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 829
Location: NW Florida
Our local instructor has all the kite school certs, but I'm not too sure of his motivation.
He intensionally avoids the "safety issues" because he's afraid that if Kite surfing is perceived as being hazzardous then he'll loose customers.

He will never wear gloves or helmet for fear that someone will ask "why do you wear safety equipment?"

The instructor should be rated by how the students act after the lesson.

The first thing these "students" do is practice land kiting upwind and near people, because they are too lazy to to walk 50m, and they just walk around the beach with the kite at zennith.

This is what they're taught to do. IMHO really stupid!

Oh well I guess I'm just a kranky old fart complaining about everything :D
- kg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:24 pm 
alinsley wrote:
Fo,

I normally agree with you on many of your points.

But it is my opinion that you are WRONG on this one. Steve and Traig are closer to the truth this time.

I am from the school that an inexpensive trainer kite is one of the best investments in kitesurfing.

I am also from the school that a group lesson to get the basics and then one-on-one coaching to get to the next step is the very best way to safely and quickly develop basic kiteflying skills. I agree with you - trainer kites are fast and sketchy - non-crowded spots only.

I do think that taking beginners into the ocean and giving them a full-sized kite is a bad way to go. You are right that it freaks the beginner out just enough to learn to respect the kite (a very good thing). But the only reason this is happening is because the beginner is getting hauled around by this big kite, seemingly at random because they don't understand what is going on (a very bad thing). That sounds to me like an accident waiting to happen.

But I think we both agree that kitesurfing is pretty much always an accident waiting to happen, and the trick is to use your judgement and experience to talk your ego away from doing something REALLY stupid.

But beginners don't have any judgement or experience, only ego - so they need the help of those more experienced - hopefully good schools/instructors/locals.

Cheers,
Alan


Hi alan,

It's ok man I just have my views on stuff it's ok to disagree,,,
So many are enamored with the beniffits of trainer kite that perhaps I should post my objections so that you all show me my error
I'm here to learn as well as give you guys a raft of shit,smile

My premise is you must learn to handle a real kite in real wind to kitesurf nothing short of that is REQUIRED,,,in other words you do not have to be compitent with a trainer to kitesurf,,, you just plain old every day DON"T need this skill period,,end of story,,,TRUTH,,absolute FACT,,

PLUS TRAINER KITES ARE:

1. trainers are two line kites>>a world away from a four line kite
2. trainers a lighting fast>>>>A world away form a full size kite
3, trainer let you get away with a trip through the zone>>>>this is false imput and just plain stupid to let a new guy think HEY? i can really handle this baby,,,,
4. Trainers are dangerious on a beach with people (nearlyall beaches have people)
5, you get to thinking beach kiting is fun>>BAD Mojo
6. if you CAN fly a trainner you may still get fucking wacked first srote with a real kite TRUTH
7. Thats enough for now I could go on and on,,
* you have to untrain,,trainer habits to get the dude safe on a real kite


OK if you can ignore these facts and still think beach trainig is a good
you see things different you are not of my mind
Who knows
may-be you could explain it for me?
Thanks
fokiten


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 1:00 am
Posts: 2572
Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
fokiten wrote:
alinsley wrote:
Fo,

My premise is you must learn to handle a real kite in real wind to kitesurf nothing short of that is REQUIRED,,,in other words you do not have to be compitent with a trainer to kitesurf,,, you just plain old every day DON"T need this skill period,,end of story,,,TRUTH,,absolute FACT,,

PLUS TRAINER KITES ARE:

1. trainers are two line kites>>a world away from a four line kite.
2. trainers a lighting fast>>>>A world away form a full size kite
3, trainer let you get away with a trip through the zone>>>>this is false imput and just plain stupid to let a new guy think HEY? i can really handle this baby,,,,
4. Trainers are dangerious on a beach with people (nearlyall beaches have people)
5, you get to thinking beach kiting is fun>>BAD Mojo
6. if you CAN fly a trainner you may still get fucking wacked first srote with a real kite TRUTH
7. Thats enough for now I could go on and on,,
* you have to untrain,,trainer habits to get the dude safe on a real kite


OK if you can ignore these facts and still think beach trainig is a good
you see things different you are not of my mind
Who knows
may-be you could explain it for me?
Thanks
fokiten


fo,

trying real real hard to understand your logic and how it applies to the rest of the world. so you take students out with a full size kite just so it will scare the living shit out of them and then they will appreciate the power??? maybe it works for you in your area where you have absolutely wide open space and never any potential objects to hit. boats, trees, let alone being boosted in a gust and crashing hard. Kudos to your location, but some of us don't have that luxury.

trainers are good. trainers enhance skills. bigger trainers are slow and you cannot take it through the power zone... second person holds on to harness and students practice water starts, flying one handed. flying without looking at the kite. running with the kite to simulate movement on the water. kites respond differently when your moving. It's all a progression. Throw on some blades with a trainer in an open parking lot and that will scare the shit out of someone. All this is fun and can only enhance the process.

the validity of trainers on the beach has nothing to do with the process of instruction, but the stupidity of flying near others. totally different issue. trainers on the beach are fine if they are clear of any danger.

if it works for you, great... more power to ya.
signed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:20 pm 
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User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:45 pm
Posts: 1322
Location: California
fokiten wrote:

...PLUS TRAINER KITES ARE:

1. trainers are two line kites>>a world away from a four line kite
2. trainers a lighting fast>>>>A world away form a full size kite
3, trainer let you get away with a trip through the zone>>>>this is false imput and just plain stupid to let a new guy think HEY? i can really handle this baby,,,,
4. Trainers are dangerious on a beach with people (nearlyall beaches have people)
5, you get to thinking beach kiting is fun>>BAD Mojo
6. if you CAN fly a trainner you may still get fucking wacked first srote with a real kite TRUTH
7. Thats enough for now I could go on and on,,
* you have to untrain,,trainer habits to get the dude safe on a real kite


Can't dispute most of that. However, there is one thing total newbies
are usually totally unaware of that they can learn from a trainer in
relative safety before hooking on to a monster... the wind-window.

I say give them a short lesson of feeling out the wind window with a
trainer then dump it. Do the trainer lesson in an open meadow well
away from the crowds and tell them you are doing it there becasue
power-kite flying on the beach, near crowds of people is dangerous
and that way you give them two lessons in one.

(and of course make sure you rig the trainer as a 4-line)

Steve T.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:21 pm 
Hey guys,
Like i said it's all ok with me what you do to your students, I can take it as long as I don't have to see it,,
Yeah, scareing the living shit out of them is a good thing, Im for it!
like I say Im not an instructor,,I do not put them on 16 mtrs, in twenty knots,,
I think for an average 170 lb. swinging dick,, a 12 mtr, in 10 to 13 knots is about perfect,,you know they are so scared anyway,,they have trouble stroking the kite,,then time passes,, they get brave,,then whamo,,air born,,,so they understand,,,this is good i think,,,and yes we have a great spot, steady wind,,lots o room,,,they get 7 miles of body dragging the first day by the time they are getting close to home base they are ready to quit
plus they are famillar with what a real kite will do to sloppy pilots, the kite is the best instructor,,,one more note the kite knows where the window is and lets the sudent in on the situation,,the kite knows,,the sudent learns from the kite,,
Ps,,if they get mega slamed,,well we all know this happens for real to every single one of us at some point,,they deserve to know the score first day,,,that way they can make an informed decisson if kite surfing is right for them
Truth in teaching is not a bad thing...
fokiten


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:21 pm 
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Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 1:00 am
Posts: 2572
Location: Madison, Wi. Cabrinha, Slingshot, Blade, Axis, Mystic, NP Surf.
fo,

your last description helps explain a lot about your conditions. where do you ride? sounds like hatteras or S. Padre if your in the US. one comment though that may or may not make a difference is that you are not and instructor therefore you also would not be liable. i think?? i can imagine though the laughs as you refer to in the beginning when your buds let loose in the wide open. glad it works for you.
cheers :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:53 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 2717
Location: Retailer/distributor
Lets see if we can have a civil interaction Fokiten?
I do agree with a lot of what you say, but not all of it and there is no need for the super aggro confusing descritions ok?
I do not have the luxury of lots of wide open beaches, unlike where you and your buddies teach.
We need to get people up to speed on a small slowish trainer like the Ozone Imp, or a bigger Little Devil.
Last season we did several hundred lessons there is big demand here, I need to be able to send people away to more deserted locations to get their basic skills.
We also have been doing this for over 10 years, I do know how to teach mate.
A trainer is not necessary for all people, only those that have NO previous experience with kites or wind sports.
A trainer kite is as real as your big kiteboarding kite, maybe you do not see it that way but that is a fact.
People that heve previous kite flying experience learn the fastest - fact!
However they do not necessarily progress to be the best kiteboarders.
If you have issues with the speed of trainers and space, use thick 500lb lines, and use lines no longer than 15-20M, even shorter to start with?
My only motive is not to lock horns with you, just to add my valuable experience to the pool of communications here ok?





fokiten wrote:
alinsley wrote:
Fo,

I normally agree with you on many of your points.

But it is my opinion that you are WRONG on this one. Steve and Traig are closer to the truth this time.

I am from the school that an inexpensive trainer kite is one of the best investments in kitesurfing.

I am also from the school that a group lesson to get the basics and then one-on-one coaching to get to the next step is the very best way to safely and quickly develop basic kiteflying skills. I agree with you - trainer kites are fast and sketchy - non-crowded spots only.

I do think that taking beginners into the ocean and giving them a full-sized kite is a bad way to go. You are right that it freaks the beginner out just enough to learn to respect the kite (a very good thing). But the only reason this is happening is because the beginner is getting hauled around by this big kite, seemingly at random because they don't understand what is going on (a very bad thing). That sounds to me like an accident waiting to happen.

But I think we both agree that kitesurfing is pretty much always an accident waiting to happen, and the trick is to use your judgement and experience to talk your ego away from doing something REALLY stupid.

But beginners don't have any judgement or experience, only ego - so they need the help of those more experienced - hopefully good schools/instructors/locals.

Cheers,
Alan


Hi alan,

It's ok man I just have my views on stuff it's ok to disagree,,,
So many are enamored with the beniffits of trainer kite that perhaps I should post my objections so that you all show me my error
I'm here to learn as well as give you guys a raft of shit,smile

My premise is you must learn to handle a real kite in real wind to kitesurf nothing short of that is REQUIRED,,,in other words you do not have to be compitent with a trainer to kitesurf,,, you just plain old every day DON"T need this skill period,,end of story,,,TRUTH,,absolute FACT,,

PLUS TRAINER KITES ARE:

1. trainers are two line kites>>a world away from a four line kite
2. trainers a lighting fast>>>>A world away form a full size kite
3, trainer let you get away with a trip through the zone>>>>this is false imput and just plain stupid to let a new guy think HEY? i can really handle this baby,,,,
4. Trainers are dangerious on a beach with people (nearlyall beaches have people)
5, you get to thinking beach kiting is fun>>BAD Mojo
6. if you CAN fly a trainner you may still get fucking wacked first srote with a real kite TRUTH
7. Thats enough for now I could go on and on,,
* you have to untrain,,trainer habits to get the dude safe on a real kite


OK if you can ignore these facts and still think beach trainig is a good
you see things different you are not of my mind
Who knows
may-be you could explain it for me?
Thanks
fokiten


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