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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:28 pm 
RickI wrote:
Tom183 wrote:

Good analogy, but in this case I think the real killer was the conditions: gusty with rain squalls...


The weather was certainly significant but I believe there were some more critical factors than that.


It appears that the "student" had inadequate appreciation for the hazards of the sport.


Just put a kite up and go, take casual tips from whomever in lieu of quality Pro lessons in whatever conditions are blowing throught at the time and use a board leash.

Who has a responsibility to EFFECTIVELY inform guys like the "student?" Or is it as it was once stated to me "just let them figure it out on their own." No warning is necessary.


Perhaps it's time to examine the usefulness of the

NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY, JUST WANT TO GIVE IT A GO?

SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFETY SAFE programs,

all beach all the time mini kite short line simulations.

unlike an an actual real experience deepwater progam where you have the tools (a Proper sized kite) to learn to drag up wind on, so one CAN afford to ditch the leash.

unlike the mini-sim lesson program; a 5m in 8 knts, our novices can learn nothing in this pussifed enviorment, unable to go upwind unable to ride,yet they graduate onto OUR beaches, where they BECOME our problem.

UNFAIR BURDENS THE PRODUCE OF SIMULATED EXPERIECE



Yet these are so called sanctioned classes,,,

We've read the copy,,"all you need to be proficient to fly a kitesurf kite on your own" in four hours

It is no use saying this is an abberation, or the schools don't exist or operate, the pussy programs exist, thier text is online..

GO LOOK

It's our sport we need to see people get actual useful experience.

Death is real,,why sanction the mini-sim lesson package as adequate, or suggest further instruction is optional???

WHY???

without any REAL experience the novice remains a novice and to be made mere cannon fodder for his lesson dollar is not a bargin

It's time we stopped pretending it's a serious sport it requires serious lessons.

fokiten

It's time we stopped pretending..

O' and ps,,nobody is sorry?

How very unpimp like

fokiten


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:27 pm
Posts: 456
Location: San Fran
It's a terrible thing when a kiter (newbe or pro) gets killed. My condolences to all that new him. It's pretty bad also when this happens and certain people like Fo try to not blame it on the riders responsibility to get the proper lessons but the schools who gave the lessons. People getting into this sport need to understand this sport and the dangers that may arise. Its not the people who taught them who are to blame but the riders responsibility.

Fo Quotes:
unlike the mini-sim lesson program; a 5m in 8 knts, our novices can learn nothing in this pussifed enviorment, unable to go upwind unable to ride,yet they graduate onto OUR beaches, where they BECOME our problem.

UNFAIR BURDENS THE PRODUCE OF SIMULATED EXPERIECE



Yet these are so called sanctioned classes,,,

Who says they graduated onto our beaches? Not the schools but the students themselves. Schools can only provide what the student wants to learn. After that, it is the riders responsibility, PERIOD!!!! If they don't want lessons, we can only try so hard to push it on them.

Fo, you seem for the most part as the guy always trying to blame the schools and not the riders. You say everyone should have at least 10 hours of lessons before hitting the water and I agree but that is not the real world. Lets get REAL.

PS - Oh and Fo. When you are writing and posting, of course we all think your on dope. One of the words that make me think so is the word "does". It's not spelled "dose", that is a drug term.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:12 am 
uncleneil wrote:
It's a terrible thing when a kiter (newbe or pro) gets killed. My condolences to all that new him. It's pretty bad also when this happens and certain people like Fo try to not blame it on the riders responsibility to get the proper lessons but the schools who gave the lessons. People getting into this sport need to understand this sport and the dangers that may arise. Its not the people who taught them who are to blame but the riders responsibility.

Fo Quotes:
unlike the mini-sim lesson program; a 5m in 8 knts, our novices can learn nothing in this pussifed enviorment, unable to go upwind unable to ride,yet they graduate onto OUR beaches, where they BECOME our problem.

UNFAIR BURDENS THE PRODUCE OF SIMULATED EXPERIECE



Yet these are so called sanctioned classes,,,

Who says they graduated onto our beaches? Not the schools but the students themselves. Schools can only provide what the student wants to learn. After that, it is the riders responsibility, PERIOD!!!! If they don't want lessons, we can only try so hard to push it on them.

Fo, you seem for the most part as the guy always trying to blame the schools and not the riders. You say everyone should have at least 10 hours of lessons before hitting the water and I agree but that is not the real world. Lets get REAL.

PS - Oh and Fo. When you are writing and posting, of course we all think your on dope. One of the words that make me think so is the word "does". It's not spelled "dose", that is a drug term.


I don't usually post in a fatality thread.

Apologies to his memory and his loved ones.

But this is huge as regards safety,
and as safety truly depends on awareness,
and awareness comes from real experience,
and real experience is truly the genesis of respect.

And RESPECT, quite probably would have saved this percious life.

The KITESURF lessons, if we truly care about safety must include

REAL RIDE ABLE SIZED KITES AS MANDITORY

Deep water is the only place for this.

Uncleneil makes a very good point.


It is our responsibility as riders to protect ourselves and look out for our brothers.

In my humble opinion REAL KITESURF LESSONS WITH REAL RIDE ABLE SIZED KITE SHOULD BE MANDITORY.

That goes for personal freind to freind lessons as well as PROFESSIONAL LESSONS.

It's time we stopped pretending, it's a serious sport and it calls for serious lessons

tiny kite flying and memorization of a pre flight check list, rigging, pack up, relaunch theroy, self resue theroy, etc.
should all be pre kite lesson requirements, then straight out to deep water.

For some real experience.

Again apolgies to his memory and his loved ones.
f

Thanks Uncleneil
fokiten


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:54 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:48 pm
Posts: 606
Location: Michigan
Back to the orginal discussion about leashes. I would agree that the surf style leash is BAD, and leads to recoil injuries.

Now I always wear a helemt.

I have a reel leash and I have found it very safe to use when I ride with heel straps or bungies. If you crash the board doesn't come off until you have slowed down if it comes off at all. I have been using this arrangement for year with positive results.

A word on the reel leash, its a great option because it can be connected\disconnected on the water quickly. I have a carabiner on the end of mine instead of the original brass clip which broke. The biner makes it easy to snag the board leash it and the relaunch the kite, disconect the leash and ride. Its aslo great to have on your harness if you need to bring in an extra board. just hook one board to the leash and tow it in. it works much better than trying to carry a board in one hand and ride.

I know leashes can be a problem, but draggin for a board in big swell or ice water a mile offshore isn't for me.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 8262
Location: Florida
Reel leashes have caused injuries and by piercing helmets as well. A board can cut through an ABS helmet shell like a hot knife through butter. At least that is what has happened a number of times in the past. Helmets can save your bacon and should be worn, ideally without a board leash.

More about reel leash injuries HERE


Be careful about kiting with carabiners. They can lock on to and hold flight lines at bad times causing your kite to uncontrollably power up. A story of something that happened to a newbie with a carabiner appears HERE

under "New Rider & Corkscrew Of Death"

Learn from the past or volunteer to potentially repeat it.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:50 am
Posts: 49
Location: Sydney
fokiten wrote:

Perhaps it's time to examine the usefulness of the

NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY, JUST WANT TO GIVE IT A GO?

SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFETY SAFE programs,

all beach all the time mini kite short line simulations.

unlike an an actual real experience deepwater progam where you have the tools (a Proper sized kite) to learn to drag up wind on, so one CAN afford to ditch the leash.

unlike the mini-sim lesson program; a 5m in 8 knts, our novices can learn nothing in this pussifed enviorment, unable to go upwind unable to ride,yet they graduate onto OUR beaches, where they BECOME our problem.

UNFAIR BURDENS THE PRODUCE OF SIMULATED EXPERIECE



Yet these are so called sanctioned classes,,,

We've read the copy,,"all you need to be proficient to fly a kitesurf kite on your own" in four hours

It is no use saying this is an abberation, or the schools don't exist or operate, the pussy programs exist, thier text is online..

GO LOOK

It's our sport we need to see people get actual useful experience.

Death is real,,why sanction the mini-sim lesson package as adequate, or suggest further instruction is optional???

WHY???

without any REAL experience the novice remains a novice and to be made mere cannon fodder for his lesson dollar is not a bargin

It's time we stopped pretending it's a serious sport it requires serious lessons.

fokiten

It's time we stopped pretending..

O' and ps,,nobody is sorry?

How very unpimp like

fokiten


How pathetic are you Fo??? you couldnt give a shit about this guy! All your doing is using this topic as another avenue to make ANOTHER IDENTICAL post about your pathetic deep water instruction, and totally ripping into instructors...

Get over it mate, this accident would have happened in deep water, or shallow! its about usuing a leash! Beat it with your repetitive posts.... they are totally flawed.

Have some respect too, RickI is an amazing person, to document all the kiting related deaths that unfortunately occur, to purely raise awareness of the dangers in this sport. Dont hijack his thread for you personal vendetta against steve and KP... thats a huge insult.


Thanks Rick for posting this, we WONT sell a reel leash unless the guy has a helmet, still we will try to talk him out of it or give him tips like only attach it when you are trying to re-launch your kite.... There are a hell of a lot of lost boards in Botany Bay.... but we have only had one scalping by a board and that was because he leant his helmet to his g/f (honourable decision IMO)

Its very sad to hear that he didnt think much of it....im sure he may still be alive if he had of gone to the hospital... Must of been a sharp hit! because im sure if it on more of an angle he would have been scalped and gone to the hospital straight away for stitches....

Condolences go out to his family & friends, from the KP team.

Peace


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 570
Location: wiSCONsin
being a rock climber (go figure) I do know that carabiners are designed to engage under load. Look closely at where the gate pin goes into the main body and you will see that it is usually groved in a fashion so that as the biner stretches it pulls the pin into the groove. This is by design and great if your a rock climber who falls on a biner and doesn't want the gate to open (like I do). and why they WILL NOT work as a safety nor are they designed to be used by kiters. READ THE WARNING STAMPED INTO THE SIDE OF THEM......."for rock climbing only"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:58 pm
Posts: 1266
I posted this last year, and haven't changed my opinion since. The flyfishing reel as tested out great in over a year and a half of use. I found one for less than $10. (US) and it can carry 70 feet of Q Power line.
Sorry the post is so long!

"I also feel that the best practice is to use no leash….especially in ocean waves where you can get tumbled and “mummy wrappedâ€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:22 am
Posts: 1266
Location: PBKiteboarding.com Sales-Repair-Lessons Ozone, Aboards, Flysurfer, OR, Canada USA Worlwide
If you make it your choice to use a reel leash with a helmet... You could have a 2-3ft connection from the board with a clip... Keep the boards from getting to close when starting up...

Have only the webbing at the end of the reel leash with small plastic tie clips... Many times there is very little pull on the board... when there is, the clip will let go or break before there is enough to slingshot the board... Body drag to the board and clip to the next one...

You do get a surprised when your board is gone... but it may have been a good one... as well... Without the metal clip on the end on the leash you won't have it coming back to you... That clip in itself can be dangerous... if it let's go...

I saw another idea where a guy had a straight peice of 6" bungie attached to the end of the reel leash. attached to the board was a a 2-3ft rope or shock cord... was a peice of plastic, rectangle... 1/2 thick... with a hole to slide the bungie through... and a notch just below the hole.... Looks lke a key hole...So put the bungie through the big hole and slide in down the slightly smaller notch... It may gradually slide out on small falls but can be adjusted back up...comes out on big fall easy...

Better no leash in most cases... but some areas with cold water... or sometimes up and down conditions in light winds can make it hard to body drag back...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:19 pm 
Regards,

I think there no absolutes in kiting.

To demonize a tool for simple reason it could be mis-used seems well, stupid.

I have a reel leash on my harness and I'm glad for it.

There are certainly times when it saves you..

Extremes are where it comes into play, super lite wind, and survial kiting.

in non jumping tring to stay upwind, that reel leash is looking good.

In wack O' god help me I also hook it up,,,well, truth is, I'd rather keep my board while I wait it out.

Hey,,It's about respecting all the dangers.

It's about tool use and being smart enough not to mis use them.

Every day push your limits fun kiting,,,stupid to use a leash...

Way underpowed God help me if I fall and lose my board,,smart to have it leashed.

Wack overpowered,,,yup I"m just that stupid.

(note: I'm not jumping I'm just waiting it out)

Regards
fokiten


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