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C-Kite with optional Bow bridles?

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Spencer
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C-Kite with optional Bow bridles?

Postby Spencer » Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:47 pm

Why doesn't someone make a classic C-kite that also has attachment points for bow-style bridles and a bridle system that can be easily attached or removed? This kind of "convertible" kite would have the proven stability of the C-kites, and with bridles would have enough depower for beginners or wave-riders. If people wanted the classic kite feel, they could simply remove the bridles for jumping/tricks, and then put them back on again when heading to a good surf spot. Beginners and intermediates could leave the bridles on all the time for safety. I think that a bow-style bridle could turn even the most bad-ass hucking machine into a safe beginner kite, or smooth wave kite. Any ideas?

Spencer

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ed257
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Postby ed257 » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:01 pm

Nice idea, but not there is much more to it to achieve the depower capabilities it that just a bridle. The you need the swept back wing tips compared to its centre of pull to achieve significant depower.

By the way Globerider already offers a simple bridle on their C-kites (KPO kite power optimizer) that does increase the range and de-power. But it is nowhere near what is possible on a Bow kite.

Ed

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JS
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Postby JS » Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:35 pm

It is the flatness, and not the bridle, that makes the controllable depower possible. If a kite was perfectly flat like a wing, with a well-balanced control system you could achieve total sheeting capability with almost non-existent bar pressure and very little bar travel. The closer kites get to being really flat, the better control we will have over them.

Spencer
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Postby Spencer » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:12 pm

I don't think it's the flat shape that allows the depower, but rather the tow point. For example, a traditional c-kite will fully depower by pulling on a 5th line, even though it's not flat. I think the bow bridle is just a way to integrate this into 4 lines with one smooth continuous motion of the bar. I'm only guessing here, but I wonder if Bruno designed the bow bridle first for a c-kite, then figured that if he had to have a bridle to achieve full de-power, why not take advantage of the bridle to also support a higher projected area. This is only speculation, though!

Spencer
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Postby Spencer » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:15 pm

ed257 wrote:By the way Globerider already offers a simple bridle on their C-kites (KPO kite power optimizer) that does increase the range and de-power. But it is nowhere near what is possible on a Bow kite.
Ed
I think the reason that the KPO bridle doesn't have as much depower as a bow bridle is because it doesn't move the tow point ALL the way up to the top/center of the leading edge. It only moves it a little bit further up than the normal connection point on the wingtip.

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Re: C-Kite with optional Bow bridles?

Postby UNSAFE » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:22 pm

Spencer wrote:Why doesn't someone make a classic C-kite that also has attachment points for bow-style bridles and a bridle system that can be easily attached or removed? This kind of "convertible" kite would have the proven stability of the C-kites, and with bridles would have enough depower for beginners or wave-riders. If people wanted the classic kite feel, they could simply remove the bridles for jumping/tricks, and then put them back on again when heading to a good surf spot. Beginners and intermediates could leave the bridles on all the time for safety. I think that a bow-style bridle could turn even the most bad-ass hucking machine into a safe beginner kite, or smooth wave kite. Any ideas?

Spencer
Won't work. At least not well.

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Re: C-Kite with optional Bow bridles?

Postby tweak » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:42 pm

Spencer wrote:Why doesn't someone make a classic C-kite that also has attachment points for bow-style bridles and a bridle system that can be easily attached or removed? This kind of "convertible" kite would have the proven stability of the C-kites, and with bridles would have enough depower for beginners or wave-riders. If people wanted the classic kite feel, they could simply remove the bridles for jumping/tricks, and then put them back on again when heading to a good surf spot. Beginners and intermediates could leave the bridles on all the time for safety. I think that a bow-style bridle could turn even the most bad-ass hucking machine into a safe beginner kite, or smooth wave kite. Any ideas?

Spencer
It done. This is the point of the SAFE system on the Rage and Outrages

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Postby Wetstuff » Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:13 pm

I think Spencer is right. I'm not an aerodynamicist, nor do I know dog s___t about fluid dynamics - but I've watched 5th lines for the past year change shapes of kites and - as he said - moved the tow point waaay forward of the normal settings to the point of 95% depower. With a variable-5th you can clearly change the range of the kite you are flying. (I'm neither smart enough to tell you what %, nor do I really care - simply what I observed at the bar.)

.....I only jump in here 'cause I brought a Gasstra 12M GXR into the shop that's been idle in storage to see if I can make a bow bridle for it. This Son-of-a-B___h kite is very well made, looks great but goes completely spastic when I lay my 85kig into it in its upper range.

So far: I've done a 5th - a front-to-rear crisscross bridle - a KPO type variable front....and before this bow stuff was thinking about adding to the LE at the tps to move the tow point outboard - with everything wroking OK but the kite still acting like one of them Bible nuts at a tent revival....but this bridle looks more interesting. I'll not be able to do any calculations, make CAD drawings but I have plenty of line and the shop to do it in. Even if I can't take the bucking out of it - I want to see what happens.

Will report back - win/loose.

Jim

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JS
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Postby JS » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:51 pm

I don't think it's the flat shape that allows the depower, but rather the tow point.
I totally agree with you Spencer. I should have explained my point better.

When the lines are attached at or near the wingtips, directly or by bridle, a C-kite has very little sheeting range. You can literally cut the rear lines and the kite will still be substantially powered. A 5th line does deal with this, albeit awkwardly, because it gets the towpoint and horizontal pivot point higher up into the "C" of the kite.

But without totally rigid C-kites and/or bizarre struts and bridles, there is no way geometrically to get the horizontal pivot point up to where it needs to be in order to reduce: 1) bar travel, 2) bar pressure, and 3) bar pressure variation throughout the sheeting range, down to a minimum.

Flatter kites get around this challenge.


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