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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:29 pm 
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i think you might be over estimating the draw of the bow kites.

for every guy i know who liked them i know another who didnt dig what they offer.

i fall into the second camp, whilst i'd love the drop bar depower, i'm not prepared to take the riding feel to pay for it.

i don't doubt that for some people they will be exactly what they are looking for, but like anything new, i think we are a good few design revolutions away from the ideal.

look how long it took to get where we are with c shapes, 8 years of design revisions and they still arent perfect. maybe the bow kites are starting from a better initial design point, but they are still going to take time to get some of the obvious production issues ironed out.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:19 am 
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sq225917 wrote:
i think you might be over estimating the draw of the bow kites..


I agree with this....

sq225917 wrote:
it look how long it took to get where we are with c shapes, 8 years of design revisions and they still arent perfect. maybe the bow kites are starting from a better initial design point, but they are still going to take time to get some of the obvious production issues ironed out.


but I think they have done a pretty good start, especially putting more focus on safety. While the kite market is still growing it is very good to know that many newcomers will have the choice to start with safer kites and potentially require to buy onle one (max two) to get started.

P


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:14 am 
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Location: SoCal
Come on ,lets tell it like it is !
On beaches all over the World,the word is" The Crossbow is everything that the Hellfish claimed to be " Dont lie and say you have not heard that.

SQ is bashing the Crossbow at every oportunity because it put the last nail in the coffin of his little Hellfish World!

He is bitter and twisted. Because he had to go and get a real job after his dream of making a living from the Hellfish turned into a nightmare.

SQ,I am sure that you can climb out of the deep black hole that is your existance,in time. Trust me,creating an obsession to bash the Crossbow will not help you !

Everyone can see right through your bullshit.

You bash the Xbow,and say you dont like Bow kites. Then you say you like the Sonic! WTF ????

Pretty obvious that you think that supporting a Crossbow competitor will cause them some harm !

Dream on baby !


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:27 pm 
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Location: A Best owner; ex F-One, SS, North, Cab owner
KiteKarl wrote:
I voted with my cash for the xbow so I know its drawbacks.


KiteKarl wrote:
Viet, maybe you can point out where my self denial is.


My point is that just because you "voted with your cash" does not necessarily prove anything. If you did "know its drawbacks" you at least would have waited a month to get an xbow with the simple modifications.

Specifically, you are not special/expert just because you "voted with your cash"... you faced the same issues that all customers do... that is the "cash vote" represents MORE a leap a faith in the product and the brand... and LESS on KNOWN DRAWBACKS!

As such, since you are an early adapter and trusted the brand with a big wad of cash, it can at least
a) be upfront about the product (instead of hoping you don't realize the modications that being made in subsequent batches)
b) be responsive about problems

If customers like you have faith in the brand... why can't the brand initial premise be... "customer is probably right" instead of the usual delay/denial tactic and to portray customers' complaints as paranoid machination...

So instead... you should be saying... Since I voted for Cabrinha with my Cash... how about protecting me from the unbeknownst Drawbacks. A customer should not have to make a stink on kiteforum to get problems resolve.

How about some consumer protection advocacy here... why are people protecting brands?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:01 pm 
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Location: Portugal - Guincho; Rebel2012 5m, 9m & 2011 7m; Amundson 5'9&6'
vietkiter wrote:
How about some consumer protection advocacy here... why are people protecting brands?

Here is a good question. I think that some are defending their point of view and the options they took and the reasons they evaluated to do them. Others are protection (or trying to) their investment.
But most of the times it all seems like a clubistic thing, just like in football, with no apparent reason.
Wierd as people seem to loose the global sight of things when someone is saying not-so-good-things about their gear. Maybe it is because they are being told things they already know or wished not to know :wink:

See you!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:52 pm 
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vietkiter wrote:
KiteKarl wrote:
I voted with my cash for the xbow so I know its drawbacks.


KiteKarl wrote:
Viet, maybe you can point out where my self denial is.


My point is that just because you "voted with your cash" does not necessarily prove anything. If you did "know its drawbacks" you at least would have waited a month to get an xbow with the simple modifications.

Specifically, you are not special/expert just because you "voted with your cash"... you faced the same issues that all customers do... that is the "cash vote" represents MORE a leap a faith in the product and the brand... and LESS on KNOWN DRAWBACKS!

As such, since you are an early adapter and trusted the brand with a big wad of cash, it can at least
a) be upfront about the product (instead of hoping you don't realize the modications that being made in subsequent batches)
b) be responsive about problems

If customers like you have faith in the brand... why can't the brand initial premise be... "customer is probably right" instead of the usual delay/denial tactic and to portray customers' complaints as paranoid machination...

So instead... you should be saying... Since I voted for Cabrinha with my Cash... how about protecting me from the unbeknownst Drawbacks. A customer should not have to make a stink on kiteforum to get problems resolve.

How about some consumer protection advocacy here... why are people protecting brands?


Where am I protecting the brand? I've openly stated my issues with the kite. Really Viet, how you come up with this crap is beyond me. You can't know all of a kites drawbacks in the first week or two. Where did I claim to be an expert on anything? Where did I claim to have faith in the brand? I bought the kite because I demo'd it and liked its performance and the price wasn't an issue with me. I'm simply stating my experience with the kite and Cabrinha. Cabrinha contracts out their warranty claims. It took about 10 days from the time I sent my claim in to the time they accepted.
Yes, I'm lucky to be able to afford a leap of faith in a new technology. I also expect a company to stand behind their products which Cabrinha did. I agree that Cab should have been upfront about the neoprene pump reinforcement mod but it is seems as though my case may have established some sort of precedence as it is being covered by warranty. It is for this reason, I wished to share the details of my case; to assist other xbow owners with their present/future claims. Oh, and thanks for telling me what I should be saying. I'll call you when I need you in court. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:10 am 
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sq225917 wrote:
i think you might be over estimating the draw of the bow kites.

for every guy i know who liked them i know another who didnt dig what they offer.

i fall into the second camp, whilst i'd love the drop bar depower, i'm not prepared to take the riding feel to pay for it.

i don't doubt that for some people they will be exactly what they are looking for, but like anything new, i think we are a good few design revolutions away from the ideal.

look how long it took to get where we are with c shapes, 8 years of design revisions and they still arent perfect. maybe the bow kites are starting from a better initial design point, but they are still going to take time to get some of the obvious production issues ironed out.


SQ, again, very disappointing. If you keep going like this you are not going to have any credibility in this forum (some people may think you don't have any already).

I would strongly recommend you to stop with your childish behaviour.

It will have it's consequences if you don't.

P


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:25 am 
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Location: Portugal - Guincho; Rebel2012 5m, 9m & 2011 7m; Amundson 5'9&6'
Phillipp wrote:
sq225917 wrote:
i think you might be over estimating the draw of the bow kites.

for every guy i know who liked them i know another who didnt dig what they offer.

i fall into the second camp, whilst i'd love the drop bar depower, i'm not prepared to take the riding feel to pay for it.

i don't doubt that for some people they will be exactly what they are looking for, but like anything new, i think we are a good few design revolutions away from the ideal.

look how long it took to get where we are with c shapes, 8 years of design revisions and they still arent perfect. maybe the bow kites are starting from a better initial design point, but they are still going to take time to get some of the obvious production issues ironed out.


SQ, again, very disappointing. If you keep going like this you are not going to have any credibility in this forum (some people may think you don't have any already).

I would strongly recommend you to stop with your childish behaviour.

It will have it's consequences if you don't.

P

Hum... what is the problem?
It looks like a ver normal post to me with a valuable opinion. Am i missing something?
There are several other kiters with exactly the same position (here at the forum and i imagine in every beach). Specially the most experienced ones (that are more used to C shaped).
I wish bows where even better too. Just like i would like C shapes had most of the bow kites behaviour - then we would not be having this chat ;-)

See you!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:50 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Oz
I have been using CB's for a while now, and had three sessions with the 9 in mental wind on the weekend down the coast.

When I say mental wind, I am talking gusts recorded at a wind station a few kms away as high as 55 knots. I'd say the wind was averaging 35 most of the time and regularly going over 40.

In this kind of crazy, gusty wind - nothing compares to the CB. No way I would have kited with any other kite. I would have been watching TV if I had my older kites.

A couple of points:

- Even in this much wind, you can turn on a wave and ride the wave directly INTO the wind with the kite depowered pulling it upwind with you. You can't do that with any other kite.

- I hate to admit it, but I have done board-offs with the CB. Its not really that different to any other kite. All kites are dogs in the air when depowered. So you have to hold the bar in for power in all cases. Same with CB. Just put your front hand close to the chicken loop. But easier with the 12 than the 9.

- These kites are fast (due to their power control). I was on the speed course at Sandy Point and on one run caught up to a guy with a Proof Speedboard and RS5 Speedseeker sail. I am not sure how powered he was, but this year we will see kites passing sailboards in conditions under 40 knots.

I didn't have my GPS, but I reckon I went faster than my previous best speed either windsurfing or kiting without any real effort. You can ride much more powered knowing you can ditch the power and stay in control.

- The biggest impact on speed is going upwind in chop. Becuase you can ride without edging so hard, it becomes more like windsurfing. You can ride very fast while pointing high in strong wind with a light feel. I was nearly as fast as the sailboards upwind, and probably 80% faster than I could ride with a C shape kite.

- The safety aspects of this kite are insane. A friend of mine got caught in a mental squall on Sunday. It was like 50 knots. He had an 11m Feul up on 20 meter lines. (He is a VERY good kiter). The squall hit and he was yelling for me to help. The water went white. The wind was offshore in the inlet so he wasn't in real danger, but totally out of control being dragged downwind. I was on the shore with the video camera. I felt so comfortable with the 9 CB, I thought about launching to go after him. Then the squall passed and he got back to the beach.

The prior day he only kited on my 9 (In the waves) because we felt there was too much wind for his C kite.

BUT.... Despite all of this, I can honestly say that in perfect conditions (stable wind, flat water and 18 knots) I'd probably prefer a C kite. But only just. If you don't need the range, dont kite in waves then I feel the more direct feel of the way a C kite turns is better. Those pulleys do create a spongy feel.

But I'd still rather own Crossbows... Because as we all know those perfect conditions are rare.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:47 am 
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Wawando wrote:
Hum... what is the problem?
It looks like a ver normal post to me with a valuable opinion. Am i missing something?
There are several other kiters with exactly the same position (here at the forum and i imagine in every beach). Specially the most experienced ones (that are more used to C shaped).
I wish bows where even better too. Just like i would like C shapes had most of the bow kites behaviour - then we would not be having this chat ;-)

See you!


Wawando, I agree that this one was a tame one on SQ's Bow bashing standards. I was just getting a bit annoyed after reading 5 different threads (some of them not even related to the topic Bow kite) and SQ was having a go at them without any facts, qualification, etc.

As you can see on the other threads, quite a few fellow forum members got annoyed with his behaviour. It just sucks.

I'm happy to bag any kite if there is a generalised problem/fault with it. Kitecompanies need to understand that they can't charge top dollars and deliver crap (HF as a prime example). But when forum members have a feast on single events of a failure or a kite damage (where it's not even proven that it's happening with many others) I find it very disturbing.

P


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