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 Post subject: North Vegas 2014 vs 2015
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:23 am 
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Hello,
Have someone tested new North Vegas 2015?
Want to buy 9m2 and 12m2. I hear good review about 2014 model of Vegas, but tested only 2013 model once.
After reviews 2015 model completely redesigned so will it be so good as 2014?
Is it better to wait 2015 model in local stores or buy 2014 model? Can't find any reviews still about 2015 model.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: North Vegas 2014 vs 2015
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:48 pm 
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Posts: 119
I have already tried the12m 2015 vegas.Set oridinary NKB 5 line bar (the high Y) and medium depower/medium bar pressure and you have a very similar kite to 2013 and 2014 vegas. It might be a bit slower/heavier to initiate the turn.

I would love to try it on the low Y bar tho.


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 Post subject: Re: North Vegas 2014 vs 2015
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:09 am
Posts: 262
Location: Hood River
A couple months ago I tested the 2015 Vegas on the team bar with the kite set to 5-line wake setting (not the Hadlow setting) and as I reported on here, I found the kite extremely hard to ride, clearly being tuned for the pros (Craig Cunningham, Colleen Carroll, and Tom Court) who had been using the kite. I also acknowledged that it was particularly gusty that day and I'd drunk about 64 gallons of beer the night before so I found every kite hard to ride that day.
Still, after testing the 2015 Dice and finding it more wake/freestyle friendly than the 2014 Dice, I said that I'd probably switch from 2014 Vegas' to the 2015 Dice, based on my one ride on the 2015 Vegas.

This past weekend I had a chance to spend some time on the 9 and 12 2015 Vegas on the standard (22m) 2015 bar (thanks to Colleen for the loaner). The wind was really good if a bit gusty (it is the Gorge) for the 9, and absolutely the worst/gustiest wind I've been in this year on the 12.

I can say with a pretty high degree of certainty that the 2015 Vegas, when flown on the high depower setting, is actually a very accessible kite that should not disappoint most fans of previous Vegas's. If you liked to freeride the old Vegas, and you fly the new Vegas on the high depower, fast turning settings with the normal 5th Element bar you will feel right at home. It feels very similar and has a pretty high amount of comfort and forgiveness (for a C kite, remember that the Vegas is the least forgiving kite in our lineup). The biggest change that I noticed was that the the kite either hesitated a bit or simply turned more slowly than previous versions (this is in the marketing, and it's definitely real), and it behaved differently at the top end than earlier Vegas's.

I had the kite set at slowest turning with the 22m bar set to the inside (slowest bar setting) and in my opinion the turning speed was amazing. I've felt that previous Vegas's all turned too fast, and setting the kite/bar to slow/slow didn't do quite enough to slow it down to my liking. Now, with the turning speed turned down the kite really is noticeably slower. I'm assuming that if you want the kite to turn fast you can set it to fast turning on the kite and bar and it should be plenty quick, though maybe not as fast as previous years. But as I said, this kite has always been very fast turning, so my guess is that it'll still be plenty fast. It may even be as fast... Perhaps they simply changed the tuning of the slow setting to be slower and the fast setting hasn't changed, I don't know... If you get a chance to test that please chime in.

As far as the top end, in years past the Vegas has had pretty much unlimited top end, with the issue that as you depowered and/or sheeted out, A. The kite becomes extremely unresponsive, and B. it would shudder and shake and flap and basically turn into an extremely depowered but extremely angry kite. The 2015 does not shudder and shake and get angry, but it won't completely turn off either. In the reasonably gusty winds I had the 9 out in (15-25) I found plenty of power/depower to deal with the gusts and the lulls no problem, but when I was on the 12 (wind graph showed it blowing 10-28 the whole time) and I was depowered and sheeted out in the gusts the kite was well behaved but wouldn't completely turn off the way last year's would.

All that being said I put the kite through the paces both days. I rode a twintip with the 9 and both a surfboard and a twintip with the 12. For straight-up wakestyle as a beginner (basic raleys/passes) it felt very similar to the 2014 but I found that when I got my timing right my raleys felt way more explosive, and with the turning hesitation thing I was able to deal with small mistakes I was making with the bar much more easily. Plenty of slack, very consistent when unhooked. The team guys assure me that in any setting it gives way more slack and way more consistent slack than previous years. Craig tells me that previous Vegas's tend to give complete slack for a few moments, but the new Vegas, especially when set in wakestyle/wakebar mode (and even more so when in 6-line Hadlow mode) gives a much longer period of slack, but with a small consistent pull through the slack which gives just enough resistance to maneuver against it in the air. I am not at the point where I can notice that kind of thing, but if you are there, apparently you'll really like the new Vegas. Craig told me that he was having a hard time with double passes and his first time riding the new Vegas on wakestyle mode the slack was perfect and he had no problem nailing it.

It might just be the fancy new kite thing, but hitting rails the kite felt perfect. It sat really deep and didn't rush too much to the edge of the window or stall and pull me back. I normally have like a 10% success rating at finishing the long North rail on the old Vegas or the new Dice, and I think I cleared it over 75% of the tries on the new Vegas, but I'm not experienced enough to really say the kite is that much better... I may have just been having a good day or the rail may have been perfectly set that day. However it felt like the kite just sat perfectly when heading down at it on the rail.

For kitelooping the new Vegas PULLS. It might be the slower turning thing, but kiteloops were wicked fun. If you like doing powered unhooked kiteloops, you will be EXTREMELY happy with this kite.

I did a couple jumps on the kite, and though I'm not the best judge of jumping, I went way bigger than I expected. I think those of you who like to jump the Vegas will be extremely happy with the new Vegas. It jumped big and surprisingly held me up there really well. The one downside that I noticed was that in trying hooked in kiteloops I needed some time to get used to the slower turning. The loops are big and scary powerful, but you may need to initiate the turn a little earlier than you're used to in order to get it around and back overhead. But then again, I had the kite/bar set on slow/slow, and I don't have a ton of experience with that kind of riding so take that with a grain of salt.

As I mentioned earlier, general freeriding seemed pretty similar in terms of feel/usability/forgiveness. In terms of what I rode last year vs this year after this test I think I'll probably be a Vegas guy again on the river, but I may make a few changes... In the past I often rode the Vegas in the waves. I tend to think that with the decreased top end and possibly decreased turning speed (still need to check the speed when set to fast turning) it may not work quite as well in the waves, plus the Neo and Dice are so good in that area. Also, I will probably set the bar/kite to faster turning when I'm planning to dangle/freeride, whereas last year I just left the kite on slow for whatever style I was riding.

I'll see if I can get another session with the kite set to fast turning before Colleen comes back to claim her toys, but if anyone else wants to chime in with their thoughts please do.

-Dan


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 Post subject: Re: North Vegas 2014 vs 2015
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:04 pm
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Location: Netherlands
Nice review Dan,

So with the wakestyle bar you have a little less high-end ?
Maybe i'm going for the Vegas this year but i would like to boost and do kiteloops too without being to fast overpowerd.

What is the reason the 5th element bar does not have the coated line ? The wakestyle bar should've been the standard bar on the Vegas because of the coated depowerline and bigger chickenloop, then you should have 2 options for the lower or higher 'V' split.


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 Post subject: Re: North Vegas 2014 vs 2015
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:09 am
Posts: 262
Location: Hood River
TimS-
I can't say for sure about the range of the kite with the wakestyle bar vs normal bar... I tend to think you won't give up a ton of range unless you go with the 6-line Hadlow setup (the additional lines ship with the wakestyle bar, but the bar comes rigged 5-line). Instead, the narrow bar makes the kite turn WAY slower and (from what I hear) the lower "V" gives you more slack and helps delay the turning even more, further slowing the kite down. However, I have very limited experience on the wakestyle bar and have not tried it back to back. If anyone has any experience please chime in. If I get more info I'll also let you know.

If you're looking to boost and do kiteloops I really don't think you want the wakestyle bar. It is ridiculously narrow. I'm all for slowing a kite down to get the most out of loops, hooked or unhooked, but I don't think any kite bigger than a 5 or 6 will get around on that bar. I've attached a photo below to give you perspective. It's really really short. Unless you have tiny little hands I don't think fishing-poling is an option.

Instead, if I were you I'd get the standard 22m bar. It's still fairly narrow, and when you turn the kite to slow settings and set the bar to the inside setting the kite slows down a lot. Plenty for most people to do any wakestyle move they want. That kite gives plenty of slack and hesitates really well as-is on stock settings. Then you can still switch the settings around to speed the kite up to do your kiteloops and sent jumps.

As far as putting the coated line on the standard 5th element bar... I am not privy to why we do not do that but to make an educated guess... One of my favorite things about our normal bar is the ability to move the cleat up and down... I adjust it almost every session, and it's also great for couples sharing a bar who want to adjust their throw for their different arm-reaches. This is not possible with the sheathed line. We also have a lot of freeriders who prefer the feel of the non-sheathed line. I think the reason the wake guys asked for the sheathing is because they spend so much time unhooked with their fingers straddling the center line that the standard depower chafes between their fingers, so the sheathing is for comfort's sake, but again I'm not certain.

As far as shipping a wakestyle bar with both high and low "V" setups (it would actually be 3 different setups including the Hadlow), it would drastically increase the retail price in order to give a small difference in flying characteristic. The biggest change with the wakestyle bar in terms of how the kite flies is definitely the length of the bar. The lower "V" has an effect, but I tend to think it is far less significant than the short bar, and anyone who wants their kite to turn that slow will almost certainly be doing the type of wakestyle riding where you want that lower "V". I can't imagine that bar being very fun in waves or freeriding or jumping or (it scares me to even think about it) kitelooping. That's my guess as to why you don't get two different "V" options with the wake bar.

If you're still determined to have the high "V" on the narrow bar, you can always buy the standard front-lineset and switch them out, or mod the setup that comes on the bar, or buy the normal bar instead and cut it down to the wake bar size.

If you have any more questions feel free to hit me here or PM me.

-Dan


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 Post subject: Re: North Vegas 2014 vs 2015
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:34 pm
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"Craig tells me that previous Vegas's tend to give complete slack for a few moments, but the new Vegas, especially when set in wakestyle/wakebar mode (and even more so when in 6-line Hadlow mode) gives a much longer period of slack, but with a small consistent pull through the slack which gives just enough resistance to maneuver against it in the air"


Ahahaha.....are you kidding ? A slack with a moderate constant pull ??? :lol:

Really, when i read your post it seems your test disapointed you but you are trying to find positive element or convinced yourselve that you like the kite !


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 Post subject: Re: North Vegas 2014 vs 2015
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:09 am
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Location: Hood River
Hey man, I actually kind of agree with what you're saying (though you don't have to be a dick about it). Personally I'm not at the level to be able to tell that kind of subtlety and I thought it was a weird way to describe a kite. But Colleen was just in here 5 minutes ago and I asked her what her thoughts were on the difference of the wake vs standard bar, specifically if she noticed a different wind range on the bars and she said the range is pretty much the same, but the lower "V" gets you "less slack for longer." She went on to describe exactly what Craig had told me and what I wrote above. Instead of a complete slack in the lines where you can't feel anything for a moment, the low V setup on the new Vegas will give you slight tension so you can maneuver against the kite, but it's plenty light to make passes easy and it lasts way longer than on previous Vegas's or this Vegas on the standard bar (again, these are their thoughts, not mine. To reiterate, my riding is not at that level. I have enough trouble getting the first pass in). If you don't believe them/me I'm fine with it... These are not my thoughts on it, but I have a lot of faith in our team, and they all seem to feel the same thing so I put it up here. If you ride at their level and you want to test the gear, PM me and we'll see if we can work something out and then you can come on here and post your thoughts.

As far as me just looking for an excuse to like the kite, again, I don't blame you for thinking that... I openly admitted that I did not enjoy my first session on the new Vegas with the wake bar. I found it really hard to ride and I admitted it in an earlier post. In fact, I came back on here after testing it on the wake bar against the new Dice and said I would probably switch to Dice this year. Recently I had the chance to put some more time in on the new Vegas on the standard setting/bar and I love it. It's the best kite for what I want to do right now and it's what I will be riding in flatwater next year. Not because Craig says it does some crazy slack thing that lets him hit his double passes, but because I really like the kite. I'll probably ride Dice when it's really gusty and/or I'm traveling somewhere with flatwater and waves and/or when my dangly brother makes me do dangle loops. And I'll give the wake bar another go as soon as I can.

If anyone has any questions feel free to post or PM me. If anyone has any reviews on this kite, let's hear about it. And Mike27, that was an honest offer... If you're riding at that kind of level and you want to test the kite/wake bar for yourself, PM me.

-Dan


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 Post subject: Re: North Vegas 2014 vs 2015
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:50 pm 
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Quote:
"Ahahaha.....are you kidding ? A slack with a moderate constant pull ??? :lol:

Really, when i read your post it seems your test disapointed you but you are trying to find positive element or convinced yourselve that you like the kite !"


Don't be a prick, and especially don't be an ignorant prick. If you've ever done anything unhooked where a rotation is initiated after the pop and during the period where the lines are slack, you would understand the nuance of what these pros are trying to say. You simply cannot initiate a rotation by pulling the bar to a hip if the kite's lines have gone 100% slack. You need a small amount of tension to pull against.

If I put you on a turn table and handed you a slack rope, you couldn't make yourself start to spin by pulling that rope. Nothing would happen. If I put the slightest tenson on it, you could do this.

Like Dan, I don't consistency or ability to measure the slack from one trick to another, but this kind of thing might matter to someone working on a double.


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