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IKO . IS IT WORTH ?

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fokiten

Re: IKO . IS IT WORTH ?

Postby fokiten » Sun May 21, 2006 4:20 am

Steve,

This is the topic.
ELLINAS wrote:Let me get it straight. You are an IKO instructor, you teach the students
and you give them an IKO diploma.
Is this diploma ''recognized'' by any country ?
Why should somebody be an IKO instructor and not work by himself ?
(...and not paying money to any IKO)
I myself was an IKO instructor , level...1 (back in 2002 or was it 2003 ?) but... thanks no more interested.
Yes i agree that the teaching method of Eric (he is a very nice guy too)
is great but for me to be an IKO instructor is no worth anymore.

Thats my personal opinion.
I will be glad to here something - someday that IKO diplomas are recognized by any country and are officiall.
Till that day i teach my way.

Aris Evdos
Hellas/ Greece
The insurance has a value, you pay a premium for it.

The insurance is what is recoginzed by the public (land-use) authoities,

not the level 1,2,3,4,5,6 cards.

Attack me as is your want....

The facts remain...

Best Regards
fokiten

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Postby windmaker » Sun May 21, 2006 4:46 am

If IKO could only raise their standards all these problems would vanish.
Alternatively a higher standard is created by someone else and IKO becomes completly obsolete.

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Postby KiteGlider » Sun May 21, 2006 5:48 am

Kitepower, I appreciate what you say about the history of IKO as a legitimate organization with a sincere effort to create an improvement process.

I plan to attend an IKO course mainly for the insurance. It's a great incentive, and at the very least, I'll learn what their method of instruction is.

I disagree with you that comments by Fokiten should be skipped over and disregarded.

It's important these days to be suspicious and cynical about any kiteboarding instruction business, and NOT to give them any benefit of doubt. Assume that they are incompetent idiots first, then let them prove otherwise after observing the operation.

Also, Fokiten does offer advice to keep instruction off the beach away from ppl and obstructions. (we all know that it may not be practical for everyone to use this ideal method, however, the overall concept to try to be as conservative as possible is a positive goal.)

And the reason I say this is because of recent problems in my local area.

If you would please indulge me enough to hear my complaint, I give you my thanks.

We have a new kiteboarding instruction business in town. (Which we don't need because there's already a guy here with years of experience, access to any gear you want, and who has certs in EVERY kite school there is.)

The "new" and well funded startup kiteboarding business uses the "get into your face" style of promoting the sale of lessons.

They deliberately set up near the tourist beach crowds and actually teach their "students" to launch kites in between families with kids running around the beach. They then proudly walk their kite in front of and over the beach goers to maximize the "get into your face" effect.

The result of this is that now the new "students" who can barely ride, are trained to walk through the crowds with the kite at zenith, and of course explaining to anyone who asks, how cool kites are and then passing on the name of their new kiteboarding instructor business friends.

This is really bad because this is not just a case of noob-tards making a mistake based on ignorance, this is a deliberate method of advertising "in your face" to promote the sales of kite lessons to the tourists.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have decided that the chance of risk that some kid will get their neck wrapped in kite lines is a low enough percentage to justify the increased business and to out-compete the more conservative safety conscious business.

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Re: IKO . IS IT WORTH ?

Postby Ozone Kites AUS » Sun May 21, 2006 6:11 am

That was no attack, it is just my opinion.
As usual you do not answer questions put to you, fine, blather on then.

Insurance is a product, it only has value if the PURCHASER decides so, by purchasing it.
Simple logic, perhpas beyond the ability of some simple minds?

Land owners or custodians insist that people using public lands to run commercial operations, indemnify the land owner or custodian for giving permission to operate the commercial venture. Insurance is the product that land owners insist instructors have, IKO have been able to secure that and onsell it.

It is simple logic that if IKO do not assist in providing insurance, so that instructors can operate then the future of IKO and the sport would be in jeopardy.

It is head in the sand nonsense to suggest that instruction not be standardised worldwide.

It is impractical foolish advice to promote the idea that deep water training would be tolerated by any land owner or authority governing the use of waterways, unless the operator has adequate insurance. One must cross land to get to water wouldn't one, hmmmm?????

It is also impractical, and unrealistic to suggest that kiteboarding can only be learned by putting a complete novice in harms way, by putting the kiting novice in deep water, with a powered up full size kiteboarding kite on full length lines. Attempting to control the ensuing carnage and mayhem by yelling at the novice from the safety and comfort of a boat. (this boat should be stocked with booze, weed to smoke, and mates to laugh at the "mark", according to you Fokiten)

That advice is completely stupid impractical nonsense.

Many thousands of people have learned to kite using IKO based teaching methods, this is proof alone that the methods are valid, practical, repeatable, and useful.

This deep water only, with no knowledge of how to fly a kite method is total BS, come back when you have a REAL idea.
Post an alternative REAL WORLD solution, until then you are just part of the problem.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

fokiten wrote:Steve,

The insurance has a value, you pay a premium for it.

The insurance is what is recoginzed by the public (land-use) authoities,

not the level 1,2,3,4,5,6 cards.

Attack me as is your want....

The facts remain...

Best Regards
fokiten

fokiten

Postby fokiten » Sun May 21, 2006 7:32 am

K/G, thanks man,,,that sucks for your spot,,,

Money grubbing fuc-wads,, ashole mofo pon pom wavers,,,f*** those carpetbagger dudes,

,that's bad mojo...


So now stevey??
yeah,,
You got right,,,

==========

"Land owners or custodians insist that people using public lands to run commercial operations, indemnify the land owner or custodian for giving permission to operate the commercial venture."

======================
That's right, It's the insurance they care about.

That's the prize pig you "must" secure iffin you's wishing to wallow
in the public's trough.

They'll grant you the wallow rights only if you can secure the poper level of insurance.

That's right ,,they do not give a rat's ass if you can teach or not...

So?

What have you stuffed up your butt now?

Tell us what the problem is..

Thanks
fo

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Postby vietkiter » Sun May 21, 2006 2:42 pm

kitepower wrote:Then there are armchair critics like Fokitten, who knows nothing about the subject matter generally, but who for reasons unknown to us, decides to fill our user forum with mountain of his BS opinions.
It's an oft used cheap shot to attach a poster's qualification to comment on a topic. It's the context of the post that matters.

As aqion and kiteglider noted, Fo is expressing a rather well grounded concern... the conflict of interest when the proclaimed 'guardian of community interests' has a strong vested monetary interest also... Catholic Church selling of indulgences... Boxing sanctioning fees...

No doubt that IKO is a valuable brand... the question is whether this is being used to promote worldly 'safety' goals... or is it looking more like a 'licensing mill'... and a 'paid endorsement' business...

Certainly difficult to know how IKO will evolve... but the concerns over 'conflict of interests' are certainly not BS
kitepower wrote: Insurance is a product, it only has value if the PURCHASER decides so, by purchasing it.
Simple logic, perhpas beyond the ability of some simple minds?
With all due respect, 99% of us are simple minds in our ability to 'value' the IKO insurance policy.

Let's start with the IKO insurance I see advertise on kiteforum... after a number of threads and reading the english short description, I remain 'simple minded' as to the merits of the policy...

By 'merits' I am not referring to the concept of liability insurance... but whether this specific IKO policy is 'valuable'... as we all have seen to many dubious term life, we pay your coffin policies...

a) The disability benefits are of dubious value as they are based on a very high disablement level and capped as such a low maximum payout.

b) As to the Euro 1 million liability protection... is a 'kiteboarding, excluding US snowkiting'... the best way to get 'personal umbrella liability' cover?

e.g. costs advantages? as this type of coverage can be added to most home policies, more comprehensive coverage than just kiteboarding, governed by you country's insurance laws/regulatory bodies... where you likely to have much greater recourse than one based on a DR based entity and German language contract... especially if you are not a German national.

c) So here lays the potential conflict of interest... we all should have liability coverage... and it would be valuable if an organization like IKO would provide unbias pro-consumer information on 'alternatives' to get such coverage... instead... we get IKO doing the hard sell on its policy and certification... what's next... buy starkites and get insurance?

Look, I am simple minded about these things... so I would like to hear an informed view regarding the merits of this kiteboarding liability policy... IKO? insurance experts? anyone?

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Postby chirojoseph » Sun May 21, 2006 4:18 pm

regarding the insurance, Vietkiter is spot on..we neeed a little "expert" help here...is what IKO offering really gonna help out in 90% of "instruction" casualties? How about the kite insurance that they want the schools to sell to kiters vacationing in our countries?


I have to agree that the 3rd to 6th hour of instruction would be fantastic to give in "deep water" as FO dreams...but we need one or two hours on the beach first FO, no way around that, short lines, no harness, small kite, but we need to be on tierra firma buddy. Once out in the deep blue, with the alcohol/weed filled cabin cruiser and the water proof radios we can all be safe from newbie mayhem, for sure, but you better be gettin a premium for those lessons FO-ster cause marina fees plus gas bills plus maintenance plus captain salary...whooo, these are gonna be kite classes for the rich and famous.


Nobody is saying the "system" is perfect regarding instructor certification and the ensuing "pilot" certifications thereafter. All IM saying is we gotta start somewhere...either with IKO or PASA or the REAL system...somewhere. Its probably not justified BUT its TRUE that the "authorities" want to know that we are trying to police ourselves. They want to hear the words "international certification"...they want to wash their hands of the problem and get on with giving parking tickets and backing crooked politicians etc....IF we dont give them SOMETHING akin to the IKO, then they are going to make the rules for us.

Fo, you laugh and joke about the shmucks "getting in line for their buttons" and yeah, i agree, for seasoned kiters like us its a friggin joke. But until you have the "local authorities" hassle you at the beach youve been launching at for 6 years telling you you cant kite there anymore you JUST WONT UNDERSTAND man....there is nothing you can fucking do...go with lawyers, fight the power, write articles for the newspapers, get all your neighbors to sign petitions, its a shitload of work and nobody gives a shit and at the end of the months of fighting and asking and looking for solutions you end up in some guys office who knows NOTHING about kiting and he tells you "kiting is not allowed here anymore, you guys are dangerous, at least some of you anyway, and i havent got the manpower or the experience to be able to tell which of you are safe and which are kooks."

so, if some terribly flawed certification system like IKO can help to keep THAT guy out of the loop and empower our LOCAL association of kiters more to help keep our beaches open, im all for it. I said it before, there SHOULD be competition for the IKO. There surely WILL be others who will try to improve on the system (and make money doing it) and offer better insurance and perhaps more rigid instructor evaluations and spot checks and who the hell knows what else.

But we gotta have something, just like the divers needed PADI, like the hang gliders and parapent pilots needed the USHGA, because thats just the kind of world we live in. maybe we can start the "kiteforum international instructor rating agency and kook prevention taskforce." Fo could run for pres...but hed have to make several public appearences and that would just ruin his mystique :lol:

fokiten

Postby fokiten » Sun May 21, 2006 4:41 pm

Regards, and Thanks man,,

Please note: I've never been apposed to those first few hour of orientation,,,

What I've always suggested is that you don't do that at the beach...

The beach is what we are trying to preserve access too after all..

It's bad mojo to train folks to stand in the sand and practice flying trainer/kitesurf kites.

(don't forget if your sand schooled there's always that fist time with the twelve)

first time with a full sized kite in good wind?? from the sand???you fucking kidding me??

that's disrespecting the beach, and the beach goers....

No doubt about it...

you say, hey they are only trainer kites, and I point out it's not the kites themselves but the legitimizing of the practice that's bad mojo.

Teach them the beach is not the place to practice, the beach is sacred ground, to be respected, it's for leaving and landing only, not for shore shows,,not for trainer kite fights, NO PLACE TO PRACTICE.

You gott-a stop that stuff,,,it's bad mojo

I gaurantee you if you encourage people to disrespect the beach, they'll disrespect the beach...

Orientation at your mom's house, case hardening in the deep water.

Teach respect for the beach.

That's the problem now, no one respects the beach, or the beach goers,,,O' no they were taught to put on a show there to fly there...to keep trying to ride from there, then, TOLD to walk back up wind through the crowd, with one hand on the bar and carrying their board..to just try it again !!!

THAT'S FUCKING INSANE

Thanks man
fokiten

You want to change for the better?

Start teaching respect for the beach...
fokiten

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Postby papasmerf » Sun May 21, 2006 5:21 pm

i don't post much

i think fo makes more sense than the ones that disagree with him on this thread

well, i'm off to kite again for many months

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Postby Hunqi » Sun May 21, 2006 5:38 pm

fokiten wrote:You want to change for the better?

Start teaching respect for the beach...
fokiten
I'm with U-FO.

We alredy have 11 fu***n dickhed instructors at our spot.
Most of them claim they're IKO certificated.
Our place is a small place and more than 3 techers are not desirable.
These fuckers are coming from other places from where they were kicked out from
or the places where it's closed for kiting.
"THAT'S FUCKING INSANE"
Now these fu***n commercial money oriented dickheads and newbees are everywhere
and the safety and closing the place is in jeopardy!
They can shove the IKO certificate to their ass
if they can't even regulate themselves and ignore the local rules! :evil:

Hunqi


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