You go girl!! You gota love it.
Just to clear somthing up, I never said anything bad about the kite, how could I I have never flown one. All I said was that foils do have a dorky rep. as did lou (I actually said it first but never mind).
If you rip you rip no one can take that a way from you.
Lou Wainman discusses Flysurfer's dorky image
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btjsfca
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Not that I'll do much to dispell the "dork image" that we're talking about, but as a kite designer/builder in my spare time, the idea that a foil is inferior to a tube kite is absurd.
1: Shorter leading edge = less drag = faster kite.
2: Twin skins provide a cleaner aerodynamic profile. The fact that there is no blend from the LE tube into the kite's skin means it leaves a turbulent wake where a foil profile smoothly exits the wind.
3: To argue that the bridle on the foil is some major aerodynamic issue is retarded, especially in light of the whole SLE movement with the addition of bridles.
4: Safety. Given the proper design, a foil will be unable to generate pull when the safety is engaged as it does not maintain a shape that can generate any significant amount of power.
I saw a Speed up close for the first time about a month ago, and I can't say that I've ever seen such an elegantly conceived and well executed design. It looks like the wing of a jet plane by comparison to a typical LEI.
It's been mentioned already, but with the SLE kites gaining so quickly in popularity, it seems like the convergence is that tube kites look more like foils each year, not the other way around.
Finally, the notion of "the market" selecting the optimal design is asinine. There are dozens of examples of the market selecting technologically inferior products. VHS vs Betamax, anyone? The only valid argument so far is that since there's so few foil flyers, that getting an assist at the beach is more problematic. But if FS can somehow lower the price of their kites, that problem might progressively go away.
As with anything kite-related, the end point is always that people have different preferences and there are many different designs that appeal to many different sets of requirements. As with anything people-related, we tend to speak out of our asses based on incomplete knowledge. Maybe that's why yokels out in the sticks tend to be more homophobic and anti-science than a citydweller. If you never see it, you never have to try and understand it.
OK. That's my rant. Carry on.
-J
1: Shorter leading edge = less drag = faster kite.
2: Twin skins provide a cleaner aerodynamic profile. The fact that there is no blend from the LE tube into the kite's skin means it leaves a turbulent wake where a foil profile smoothly exits the wind.
3: To argue that the bridle on the foil is some major aerodynamic issue is retarded, especially in light of the whole SLE movement with the addition of bridles.
4: Safety. Given the proper design, a foil will be unable to generate pull when the safety is engaged as it does not maintain a shape that can generate any significant amount of power.
I saw a Speed up close for the first time about a month ago, and I can't say that I've ever seen such an elegantly conceived and well executed design. It looks like the wing of a jet plane by comparison to a typical LEI.
It's been mentioned already, but with the SLE kites gaining so quickly in popularity, it seems like the convergence is that tube kites look more like foils each year, not the other way around.
Finally, the notion of "the market" selecting the optimal design is asinine. There are dozens of examples of the market selecting technologically inferior products. VHS vs Betamax, anyone? The only valid argument so far is that since there's so few foil flyers, that getting an assist at the beach is more problematic. But if FS can somehow lower the price of their kites, that problem might progressively go away.
As with anything kite-related, the end point is always that people have different preferences and there are many different designs that appeal to many different sets of requirements. As with anything people-related, we tend to speak out of our asses based on incomplete knowledge. Maybe that's why yokels out in the sticks tend to be more homophobic and anti-science than a citydweller. If you never see it, you never have to try and understand it.
OK. That's my rant. Carry on.
-J
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MonkeyAir
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It is the insecure that are the first to name call and set up these "images". A few image conscious not so locals made it their full time job to spread BS regarding PL kites here with absolutely no personal experience. It was a primarily business oriented atack just to support their sponsoring tube kite shops market share. Meanwhile they did all they could to piss off the local beach athorities...Crazy...market share foolishness pluss ego. Use what I use or you are a dork sort of mentality.
The kites just plain work very well,are safer to learn on, are more durable and user friendly. The same image thing is happening to FS and it is no surprise. They are threatening an overfilled lei market for possible sales.
The fellow that Fred mentioned above weighs about 240 and is 6'4/one of our students. He spent the last ten sessions on his 16 or 19 meter PL venom II in crazy wind ranges and is already jumping well and starting to wave ride on a large directional fish (oooohhh more stuff that is different..must be a REAL dork, hugh?) He also has a FS 17 Speed. He is a very skilled athlete and good buds with the owners of the two major name brand lei companies and has filmed them for projects. He has no interest in their lei's presently as he is learning so much on his ram airs and realizes hype for what it is and is the first to tell others this. It's called being secure and not worrying about pleasing the fools in the perifery. Being a comercial director has given him this insight. He will try all sorts of kites with an open mind.
I back to backed my girlfriends 10 V2 with the sle's we were using in the 18 to 33 mph stuff the other day. We have tested pretty much every SLE this season. .. Guess which kite was WAY more fun to use and user friendly in those conditions? No contest but she must be a dork for liking such an easy to use kite... Ermmmm...... Negative images are necessary to dominate market share and sheep will jump in line at the chance of getting a picture in a mag or a supposed team deal to slag off on things they know nothing about.. Check the UK forum and PMU here for that.
OH Yeah, Laird was interested in trying a VII 19 to pull his hydrofoil trike into huge surf.. It will stay over head without input in crap winds, has no bridles or tubes and does not fall out of the sky like any lei will. Should I tell him he is a "dork" as well for considering it with a scientific perspective? Open minds and educated minds do not create these sort of labels. Peter Carbrinha always asked about the new PL's we were testing and kept a very open mind as well. It's a shame to find out that all these guys must be dorks by some peoples criteria...
I sure do hope this makes me a dork!!! I'm in good F'n company...LMFAO
The kites just plain work very well,are safer to learn on, are more durable and user friendly. The same image thing is happening to FS and it is no surprise. They are threatening an overfilled lei market for possible sales.
The fellow that Fred mentioned above weighs about 240 and is 6'4/one of our students. He spent the last ten sessions on his 16 or 19 meter PL venom II in crazy wind ranges and is already jumping well and starting to wave ride on a large directional fish (oooohhh more stuff that is different..must be a REAL dork, hugh?) He also has a FS 17 Speed. He is a very skilled athlete and good buds with the owners of the two major name brand lei companies and has filmed them for projects. He has no interest in their lei's presently as he is learning so much on his ram airs and realizes hype for what it is and is the first to tell others this. It's called being secure and not worrying about pleasing the fools in the perifery. Being a comercial director has given him this insight. He will try all sorts of kites with an open mind.
I back to backed my girlfriends 10 V2 with the sle's we were using in the 18 to 33 mph stuff the other day. We have tested pretty much every SLE this season. .. Guess which kite was WAY more fun to use and user friendly in those conditions? No contest but she must be a dork for liking such an easy to use kite... Ermmmm...... Negative images are necessary to dominate market share and sheep will jump in line at the chance of getting a picture in a mag or a supposed team deal to slag off on things they know nothing about.. Check the UK forum and PMU here for that.
OH Yeah, Laird was interested in trying a VII 19 to pull his hydrofoil trike into huge surf.. It will stay over head without input in crap winds, has no bridles or tubes and does not fall out of the sky like any lei will. Should I tell him he is a "dork" as well for considering it with a scientific perspective? Open minds and educated minds do not create these sort of labels. Peter Carbrinha always asked about the new PL's we were testing and kept a very open mind as well. It's a shame to find out that all these guys must be dorks by some peoples criteria...
I sure do hope this makes me a dork!!! I'm in good F'n company...LMFAO
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Tone
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AMEN!!!MonkeyAir wrote:It is the insecure that are the first to name call and set up these "images". A few image conscious not so locals made it their full time job to spread BS regarding PL kites here with absolutely no personal experience. It was a primarily business oriented atack just to support their sponsoring tube kite shops market share. Meanwhile they did all they could to piss off the local beach athorities...Crazy...market share foolishness pluss ego. Use what I use or you are a dork sort of mentality.
The kites just plain work very well,are safer to learn on, are more durable and user friendly. The same image thing is happening to FS and it is no surprise. They are threatening an overfilled lei market for possible sales.
The fellow that Fred mentioned above weighs about 240 and is 6'4/one of our students. He spent the last ten sessions on his 16 or 19 meter PL venom II in crazy wind ranges and is already jumping well and starting to wave ride on a large directional fish (oooohhh more stuff that is different..must be a REAL dork, hugh?) He also has a FS 17 Speed. He is a very skilled athlete and good buds with the owners of the two major name brand lei companies and has filmed them for projects. He has no interest in their lei's presently as he is learning so much on his ram airs and realizes hype for what it is and is the first to tell others this. It's called being secure and not worrying about pleasing the fools in the perifery. Being a comercial director has given him this insight. He will try all sorts of kites with an open mind.
I back to backed my girlfriends 10 V2 with the sle's we were using in the 18 to 33 mph stuff the other day. We have tested pretty much every SLE this season. .. Guess which kite was WAY more fun to use and user friendly in those conditions? No contest but she must be a dork for liking such an easy to use kite... Ermmmm...... Negative images are necessary to dominate market share and sheep will jump in line at the chance of getting a picture in a mag or a supposed team deal to slag off on things they know nothing about.. Check the UK forum and PMU here for that.
OH Yeah, Laird was interested in trying a VII 19 to pull his hydrofoil trike into huge surf.. It will stay over head without input in crap winds, has no bridles or tubes and does not fall out of the sky like any lei will. Should I tell him he is a "dork" as well for considering it with a scientific perspective? Open minds and educated minds do not create these sort of labels. Peter Carbrinha always asked about the new PL's we were testing and kept a very open mind as well. It's a shame to find out that all these guys must be dorks by some peoples criteria...
I sure do hope this makes me a dork!!! I'm in good F'n company...LMFAO
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biggins
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One thing I've noticed is that foils last a HELL of alot longer. I still see people using old S arcs, Blades, and Psycho 1's and having a blast.
The inflatables I and friends have owned tend to last two or three seasons and then start to fall apart.
Ride what you want and have fun. Lou was doing tricks most of us still can't do on old two line wipikas YEARS ago, so who cares! It's the rider, the kite just makes it a better ride.
j
The inflatables I and friends have owned tend to last two or three seasons and then start to fall apart.
Ride what you want and have fun. Lou was doing tricks most of us still can't do on old two line wipikas YEARS ago, so who cares! It's the rider, the kite just makes it a better ride.
j
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Tom183
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Yeah, and if you took out that Lift Pro in the kind of wind Peter Lynn's are used for, you'd shit yourself.kitefrog wrote:Hate foils! Sleeping bag kites. Its more a matter of faith than objective realism about the benefits of marsh mellow kites. If a Peter Lynn user ever took out a 2003 Lift Pro 11.5m in good wind and 'sent it', they'd shit theirselves and never go back.
KiteFrog
Not to mention that you don't have a f*cking clue about these kites if all you can do is call them names. I don't know how you can hate them so much if you don't use them...
Last edited by Tom183 on Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.