*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:49 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Florida
mobettah wrote:
Good post Rick.

I have an additional suggestion for the landing section. It might be good to add a section to use your safety system to depower the kite and self rescue out in the water away from the beach / obstacles / beach goers. I've seen several people almost get lofted because they didn't want to get their kite wet! Here is my attempt at it.

-------------- start ----------------
If you have been caught out from shore kiteboarding and the wind is at the upper limit of the range for your kite, rather than try to go in and land on shore, activate your safety system a safe distance from shore. Note that water condition i.e. waves / shore break, the speed at which the wind is increasing all will contribute to where this is feasible.

--------------------------- end section ---------------

I think this might be useful because despite our best intentions and reading forecasts, sometimes the weather changes in a way that even the forecasts didn't predict. This especially happens in fall it seems up in Ontario. It sure happened today! Three wind switches in under 4 hours!


Excellent points! The deep truth of this was hammered home visualizing some riders in 2002 standing onshore looking for a landing only to be lofted into hard objects in mounting gusts. The concepts are in there and more than once. The text is evolving, let me have a go at it and let me know what you think.


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:55 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Florida
tungsten222 wrote:
Hey Rick,

this is really well done.

Couple of things I would suggest:

1. of course it is a lot of info, but it's not supposed to be read in a minute i guess. add some graphics, imagine a 10 page PDF made of it with a couple of pics, that you can download and read through it every now and then.

2. Add a chapter about common sense ("seamanship") and the use of it.

3. Gear. Appropriate safety gear depending on the situation and riding (cruising in tropical seas or a 20mile downwinder in rough 16ºC waters, and everything in between):

Always: a hook knife or two

When appropriate: flotation / impact vest, helmet, radio, whistle, flashlight, water + energy bars... every sailor knows about it, why should kiters not.


True, we could go even longer with this as a stand alone reference. I had thought about embedding links to other related articles in the text. A single pdf document could provide an effective way of conveying the ideas.

You've hit a touchy point, "seamanship." I strongly feel that the role models or ideals for our sport shouldn't be limited to guys that can throw down sick tricks but be expanded to include well rounded and highly capable watermen. These are guys who will get it done regardless of conditions in most cases, are aware of bystanders, avoid threats to access, the whole deal and not just flashy bits. Strong swimming, board skills, weather and water knowledge and stamina to go with. If folks look up to these attributes they may work to attain it them themselves, benefiting all of us. The joke of it is a lot of the current role models may exemplify this already but word never gets out or is hyped. This was part of the motivation for creating the "Way To Go" series dealing with kiter rescues.

I've avoided to some degree, perhaps wrongly, expanding content dealing with cold water sailing. In an expanded reference there would be no reason not to have a healthy cold water section in it.

Knives are good.

Thanks for your suggestions!


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:31 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:11 am
Posts: 488
Location: Pickering, ON
An idea for delivery the content. What about a website? That way you could provide levels of details /graphics / pictures. I'm ignoring the logistics of who would host / pay....


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:51 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:35 pm
Posts: 1150
Tom183 wrote:
The reason this is too long is because:
1) You're saying the same things repeatedly. It will carry greater weight (and people are more likely to read it) if it's more concise.
2) You're working too hard to justify yourself. The guidelines are common sense - no need to be defensive.
3) You're trying to cover every possibility. (the 1% doctrine) Focus on the biggest risks.

Also, it is politically dangerous to make such broad statements as "Kiteboarding can be hazardous to the rider and to bystanders, particularly if practiced without adequate training, safety gear, knowledge and caution. NOTE: Riders must accept that even if these guidelines are followed, that accidents, injury and even death may occur in kiteboarding."
I understand what you mean, but to an outsider (like the local authorities), it probably sounds like bystanders are at just as much risk as we are (not true), and that training/knowledge/caution don't help very much (also not true). And if the local authorities read it that way, you're asking for a ban.



RickI wrote:
This is probably version 25 or something over 6 years. With flat kites they have expanded in size and clarity has suffered somewhat as well. Editing is needed and redundancy needs to be reduced, true. With streamlining based upon past experience I would guess the size might be reduced by 20%, perhaps less. This is just a draft with more revisions to follow.

The intent isn't to make a very short reference. Many of the small points included factored in a number of severe accidents. Most of the content is important based on my analysis of accidents and incidents.

"Kiteboarding can be hazardous to the rider and to bystanders, particularly if practiced without adequate training, safety gear, knowledge and caution. NOTE: Riders must accept that even if these guidelines are followed, that accidents, injury and even death may occur in kiteboarding."

This has been in the guidelines for several years and a number of draft cycles when comment was requested. Also, it is true. Looking at how people often ride, we could do with more awareness when it comes to bystanders. The second sentence is a simple disclaimer and also happens to be true as well.

If people used common sense more and followed guidelines like these we would have far fewer access problems.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi



Lighten up Tom,

It took f-en years, and tons of posts to get Rick to put stronger language in his patter...now you want to change it back to the exciting, new fun sport that's sweeping the globe...??? you crazy?

and let's face it, Rick has his own sense of style

You have to accept that, now if you'd like to take a crack at it Tom, I'd be more than happy to critique it for you...

Way to hang Ricky


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:25 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Florida
spork wrote:
Rick, as always I think you've done a great service. But I worry that the people in need of this info are too often not the people that are on the forums and gathering the necessary precautions and instruction. So I have (sort of) a suggestion. When you think the list is reasonably complete a DVD could be made. Wouldn't hurt to have a couple of the Best girls help out - they're down your way right? If no one's looking to make money on the project DVD's can be made available with new kites, from the shops, at the concessions... for about 0.30 each. I just have a feeling that people are more likely to watch a DVD if it's easy enough to get in their hands. In the best of worlds we'd figure out how to offer them for free. In the worst, maybe they'd cost $1 each.


George with Kiteflix has talked about shooting some safety content often enough. He did some rider interviews a while back along those lines. Perhaps I could start with some web based video clips and see how the hits go and to fine tune the content. If things look good cut a DVD, talk to manufacturers and retailers about distributing them. I am in video editing nursery school at present, just about to upload my first processed clip on deep scooter free diving on the Cayman Wall. So, editing would likely have to fall on someone more adept. Thanks for the suggestion.


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:33 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Florida
mobettah wrote:
An idea for delivery the content. What about a website? That way you could provide levels of details /graphics / pictures. I'm ignoring the logistics of who would host / pay....


Haven't got a stand alone website for just this. Still, there is this website which has a ton of info, the set aside forum Toby created for me to collect safety posts in, http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131 and fksa.org. So, good platforms exist all of which have a lot of information. Organization of content could be revisited of course.


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:36 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Florida
tautologies wrote:
Wow, Rick, excellent. I really mean this. I agree that maybe some of the guys that should read this doesn't, I do think though that this is a document that will help a great deal of people.

Let me know if there is anything I can do.

Alex


Thanks Alex! I agree that something could be done with the packaging and delivery of the information to improve viewership. Even going with the current approach, editorial refining and streamlining will be needed and certainly will in other approaches under consideration. Your assistance in editing would be much appreciated once the final draft format is developed.


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:46 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Florida
North_Wind wrote:
This is all good stuff but exactly who is this aimed at? If this is intended as a "manual" of sorts


It really is absent other similar references which to my knowledge don't exist dealing with this exact topic. It is not just for new kiteboarders as ironically from severe accident statistics they seem to be the ones that need it the least???

I don't really believe that. The reality is, that it is us, the experienced guys getting chewed up far more often, that really need to tune in. That is if we want to try to spare ourselves some pain. Does anyone disagree with this? The numbers limited though they are, are pretty damning.

Your list is good and contains useful content. At the same time, considering the few kite related fatalities that I have heard of in the UK. I don't think the main factors are addressed in the list. This critical information is what I think riders need to see and think about. One opinion in this post is that people won't bother to read or consider the current guidelines because they are too long. May be true. Just had an idea, perhaps I could get some testimonials, maybe on video of some recovering kiteboarders from severe accidents. Small choices made in haste can result in months or longer to deal with painful recovery. What is 20 or 30 minutes of reading and contemplation balanced against a price like that? Guys pay the price currently, how many are willing to invest some time to try to avoid this?


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:30 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:23 am
Posts: 3332
Location: The United Mistakes of America
RickI wrote:
"Kiteboarding can be hazardous to the rider and to bystanders, particularly if practiced without adequate training, safety gear, knowledge and caution. NOTE: Riders must accept that even if these guidelines are followed, that accidents, injury and even death may occur in kiteboarding."

This has been in the guidelines for several years and a number of draft cycles when comment was requested. Also, it is true. Looking at how people often ride, we could do with more awareness when it comes to bystanders. The second sentence is a simple disclaimer and also happens to be true as well.


I won't deny the "truthiness" of that, it just sounds really dark and could easily be misconstrued by someone outside the sport looking in. I'm simply suggesting that it might be possible to make it sound a little more balanced - many riders have ridden incident-free for years, and more guys have been scared to death than have actually died.

And as far as a guideline that experienced riders need to follow, I think it all boils down to this:
Don't get complacent.


Top
Profile
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:41 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Florida
It has never been about fear, blind fear serves no one. It is about having sufficient knowledge, experience and judgement to try to make the right call. Whether to move forward, back or never launch in the first place and how to try to deal with things if they are about hit the fan despite precautions. If people trivialize the hazards as often been the case over the years they simply set themselves up, repeatedly. The well rounded waterman model comes to mind again, people that know what they are into, what is a good risk vs. a bad proposition. It would be great if the sport would start to promote this image, both for business and sustainability in my view.

Tom183 wrote:

And as far as a guideline that experienced riders need to follow, I think it all boils down to this:
Don't get complacent.


If it could only be so. Too short and simplistic and that's a fact Tom. Hundreds of hours of interviews, accident analysis and trying to figure out ways of avoiding bad consequences establish this, at least in my mind.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Blake, Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 20 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group