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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:06 am 
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RickI wrote:
I am in video editing nursery school at present, just about to upload my first processed clip on deep scooter free diving on the Cayman Wall. So, editing would likely have to fall on someone more adept.


Rick,

Some of the guys I work with are tops in the field of video editing. If you have raw footage I'll be more than happy to call in some favors and get them to package it up nice.

I was surprised at your conclusion that the majority of serious injuries happen to experienced riders. To some extent that kills my idea of distributing DVD's with new kites (for the newbies). But maybe still worth making the vids.

I worked for "Failure Analysis Associates" for a short time. At one point we did a study on warnings (on power equipment and in the manuals) to determine what warnings were most effective (font size and color, text length, wording, placement...). To our surprise all warnings had exactly the same effect on the end user - zero. The only effect they did have was to aid in the legal defense of the manufacturer. This is a sad commentary. Hopefully there's a better way to get the message across.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:44 pm 
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Thanks for offering editing help. Some expert help would make an important difference in how well something like this is viewed. What do you think about starting with web-based clips and moving on to a DVD? Lots of kiters don't bother with the Internet so your idea should ultimately impact more riders at large.

One thing that I have noticed is that some newbies and intermediates may be more cautious and receptive to reading and considering the guidelines. This seems to be one of the reasons losses for those groups have been fairly low historically. Also, it is important to try to promote sustainable riding habits with new riders. So, it still seems like a good idea to me.

Some guys will look over and consider aids like this while others won't. Just like with your labels. Labels are still useful things as are guidelines and instructional videos. Darwin effects are lurking in the mix for a percentage of guys that blow stuff off out of hand, nothing new there.

and ...

The Wall Free Diving video is almost done. Hope Youtube compression doesn't mess up the clarity too much. It is already low because of the depth and camera used.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:16 pm 
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RickI wrote:
What do you think about starting with web-based clips and moving on to a DVD?


I like that idea very much. I'm sure Toby would be thrilled to have them posted in his video section.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:43 pm 
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spork wrote:

to determine what warnings were most effective (font size and color, text length, wording, placement...). To our surprise all warnings had exactly the same effect on the end user - zero. The only effect they did have was to aid in the legal defense of the manufacturer. This is a sad commentary. Hopefully there's a better way to get the message across.


so there you have it Tom,

No worries, no one is going to notice...

Yeah, well, that's just how it is.

I'd agree with Rick that rookies are far more mindful of the risk they are under, and that gaining experience usually comes with a reduction of that concern

There ya go, that's what one might call a "lessoning" that's sub-zero.

It's just a matter of time before we're tested... e.g.

Quizzed on that lessening...

The irony of course is that once you've climbed that hill (bell curve) it's the most gentle of slides, you won't even notice, and there you are, with less sense than you started with...

Yeah, you get a case of shit for brains for the effort....

If you're honest you'd have to chuckle a bit at the irony.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:45 pm 
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What about some way to hold shops that sell kites accountable. You wouldn't sell a car to someone that didn't have a license would you.

The guy that recently died should not have been out there on his own. No begineer should. However I was sold equipment and shown how to self launch and said I would be fine on my own. After only one day lesson. At the time I didn't know any better. It was some young kid just trying to make a sale. I worry how many other people have been sold kites an told they would be fine to go out by themselves after one lesson.

These shops hurt everyone.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:51 pm 
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Of course now you're talking about the 3 hour beach lesson,

The talk and trainer kite session the one that shows you how to rig, where to stand and what to pull...

The famous "all you need to go it alone lesson."

don't get me started dude, you're not up to it...

It get's ugly fast...

Trust me, I've been there..

But welcome aboard, like it or not you're anti safety lesson anti sand swami.


Strange ? yes, but true...

badmrfrosty wrote:
What about some way to hold shops that sell kites accountable. You wouldn't sell a car to someone that didn't have a license would you.

The guy that recently died should not have been out there on his own. No begineer should. However I was sold equipment and shown how to self launch and said I would be fine on my own. After only one day lesson. At the time I didn't know any better. It was some young kid just trying to make a sale. I worry how many other people have been sold kites an told they would be fine to go out by themselves after one lesson.

These shops hurt everyone.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:11 pm 
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badmrfrosty wrote:
What about some way to hold shops that sell kites accountable. You wouldn't sell a car to someone that didn't have a license would you.

The guy that recently died should not have been out there on his own. No beginner should. However I was sold equipment and shown how to self launch and said I would be fine on my own. After only one day lesson. At the time I didn't know any better. It was some young kid just trying to make a sale. I worry how many other people have been sold kites an told they would be fine to go out by themselves after one lesson.

These shops hurt everyone.

No... you shouldn't hold the shops accountable. Sometimes people just have to accept responsibility for their own stupidity.

It's not the bartender's fault that you drank too much and decided to drive home....

There is no licensing for kiteboarding (thank heaven). There's no licensing for snow skiing. There's no license for wakeboarding, water skiing, skateboarding, bicycle riding, surfing, windsurfing, standup paddling, etc. If there were a license, then the shops could be held accountable for not following licensing procedures and laws. But there isn't. So, it's not their responsibility to enforce a "you gotta prove to me that you can kite before I sell you this kite" policy.

If you didn't learn enough in your one day lesson to realize the risks, then you must not have been paying attention. That's worse than not reading the manual... you were there for the lesson and didn't pick up on what they were saying about safety and danger???

You are primarily responsible for your own actions, not some manufacturer or some "deep pocket".


Last edited by Windrider on Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:18 pm 
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Well,

There goes your thread Rick, I'd suggest, you've no functional reason to change a thing...

Congrats.

On this "you're" the problem for not listening thing.

If all you had to do was listen, well you didn't have a lesson, just a chat.

Kites teach, you fly them in deep water; that is "if" you're being looked out for...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:29 pm 
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Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
Ricki. The thing that you have going here is outrageously good. It's a perfect example of what should be being done. You provide good information to people in a form that is concise and easy to digest. It, like a one day lesson, gives the person ample opportunity to learn the safety factors to reduce the risk of injury. That person is responsible for their own actions. You can lead a horse to water....

... but you can't force it to drink even if you kick it in the butt....
and you can't hold the farm hand responsible for the horse's not drinking simply on the grounds that he led the horse to the water....


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:43 pm 
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Now if this same farm-hand had taken that same horse out to deep water, and instructed him or filly that they now will absorb said water, like it or not....

Then they'd have managed their whetted equine----sure-enough...!

Its when the farm hands run the show, that the vast majority of straw fails to get washed off the hay burner...

Educate them farm hands, so those horses get to absorb them there refreshments...

sorry rick, carry-on.

Tell us more about the upcoming dive spectacular...

sounds cool


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