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 Post subject: Re: WARNING - Flat Kite Solo Launching
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:01 pm 
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Ismo wrote:
RickI wrote:
As a rule if a wing tip is wrapped the obvious approach is to drop your bar, pop your chicken loop quick release and set the kite free.

You are kidding, right?

why would you let the kite free? put it into safety!



Look at the mechanics of flat or bridled leading edge kites. The power is controlled along with the angle of attack. If you sheet out the angle of attack and power drop, hopefully a lot. This happens through movement of the bridles and pulleys. If one or more bridles fail to move this will set the kite up for a radical turn, spinning with excessive power.

If you sheet out and the bridles don't move, what will happen to the power?

Nothing.

HOW many posts have gone out about this since flat kites came about? IF it doesn't depower and is spinning you need to ditch the kite, possibly very fast. This can and has happened with C kites as well.

Flat kites have apparently resulted in significant reduction in severe kiter impacts on hard objects. The sad accident in Lithuania is one of the few that I have heard about. It apparently involved an assisted launch in excessively gusty winds. A lot of good has come with flat kites however nothing is perfect and riders need to accept and plan for that.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


Last edited by RickI on Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:07 pm 
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Alan wrote:
If your kite does sit nicely using this technique then what are the other things that can go wrong with it? I think it is the safest way. I know it flies right BEFORE I hook in and I don't have to rely on some nice person who can't flip the kite without wrapping a line around a tip.

Alan


Some kites don't sit there nicely but bounce and even roll over downwind, some are particularly unstable in lighter and gusty wind. Some other things that can go wrong is someone can get clotheslined by your lines, had people almost run into them. A big one is that your anchored kite can become unanchored. The anchor can move depending on what it is or more likely the attachment can yield also depending on what it is. If everything is solid, your kite sits there meekly and no one in sight should work in reasonable winds.


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 Post subject: Re: WARNING - Flat Kite Solo Launching
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:33 pm 
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Location: Joensuu
RickI wrote:
Ismo wrote:
RickI wrote:
As a rule if a wing tip is wrapped the obvious approach is to drop your bar, pop your chicken loop quick release and set the kite free.

You are kidding, right?

why would you let the kite free? put it into safety!



Look at the mechanics of flat or bridled leading edge kites. The power is controlled along with the angle of attack. If you sheet out the angle of attack and power drop, hopefully a lot. This happens through movement of the bridles and pulleys. If one or more bridles fail to move this will set the kite up for a radical turn, spinning with excessive power.

If you sheet out and the bridles don't move, what will happen to the power?

Nothing.

HOW many posts have gone out about this since flat kites came about? IF it doesn't depower and is spinning you need to ditch the kite, possibly very fast. This can and has happened with C kites as well.

Flat kites have apparently resulted in significant reduction in severe kiter impacts on hard objects. The sad accident in Lithuania is one of the few that I have heard about. A lot of good has come with them however nothing is perfect and riders need to accept and plan for that.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi

how about putting separate safety line? just connect it to other end of kite? then it dosn't matter if bridles don't move.
and why not connecting safety just other backline? backlines are connected to end of kite, so kite will be very flat and have only little pull, just like 4 line C kites.

I just can't understand why users accept kites with safety which don't work if something goes wrong.
it's just like car which have great brakes, but when you really need those, you get information: "brakes work only under 50km/h and dry asphalt, try jumping out of car"

for example flysurfer have great kites AND 5th line which is used only for safety.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:45 pm 
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If there was a oh-shit loop/ring on all 4 lines would this get people out of the problem?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:55 pm 
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anchored is the safe way to go. I have done it a ton of times including self landing when the wind has picked way up.

I used to do folded with C kites and the problem is you never know if something is wrong until the kite is in the air (too late). With anchored, you see the kite sitting there, can look at your lines, etc.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:32 pm 
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klimber wrote:
If there was a oh-shit loop/ring on all 4 lines would this get people out of the problem?

No. because using those can take too much time, and bar can be so far away that reaching to oh-shit is impossible.

but connecting safetyleash to other back-line oh-shit loop could put kite powerless when you use QR.

letting kite go can be dangerous to innocent people. I could even say that I don't care if someone kitesurfer get wounded/killed, but if he/she let kite loose and kite wound/kill someone, it's very bad.

kitesurfing can be dangerous and everyone who kitesurfs take risk, but risking other people in beach/water/... is not acceptable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:50 pm 
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My point is that no one should ever sand a tip to launch a bridled LEI. Things go wrong often with this technique.

I think Anchoring the chicken loop is safer than even an assisted launch (provided you have it anchored properly and there is no one down wind of you). The reason is you know for sure that the kite is flying properly before hooking in. Even after you hook in you can still be anchored (if you choose to be). I have witnessed people give the thumbs up on an assisted launch only to find out that their lines are hooked up wrong and away they go on a downwind face drag. Why not make sure your kite is flying properly before hooking in?

Alan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:00 pm 
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No kite system that I am familiar with has been perfect in terms of unconditional performance in all conditions since I started kiting nine years ago. With each new system, there are strengths and weaknesses. We don't always know the weaknesses early on either, it can take time and experience to fill those in. There is no perfect safety that I know of, you have to use knowledge, experience and good practice along with the gear.

klimber wrote:
If there was a oh-shit loop/ring on all 4 lines would this get people out of the problem?


A single Oh-Shit handle may work, particularly if too much spinning hasn't happened yet. Even that can be defeated if the lines are too wrapped up.

I have never had any luck using sand to anchor a folded wing tip on flat kites, so I never use it.

If your kite stays anchored, it doesn't roll over and no one is caught by the lines, again, tethered solo launching should be fine.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:06 pm 
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Rick's right: "Your results may vary."

Image

This 06 Shockwave was very docile at anchor. I thought any SLE would respond the same, but got a surprise one day with a RRD Hyper - when it fell back in the window and powered up. Both me - and the sandbag - went for a short thriller... Luckily, I was at the bar.

I also always kept a hand on a front line while running (there is no safe place between the kite and the bar..) from kite-to-bar ..and wore gloves, just in case. When I anchored this kite in the water (not surf) I could leave it alone because there was nothing downwind except marshland.

I would not suggest anyone do this. I'm even asking civilians to launch/hold the kite for me these days. When done, I simply go to the leash in an open area.

j i m


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:07 pm 
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Launching also includes relaunching particularly from the water. I have heard of a number of wrapped wing tips under these conditions.

How common is this? Is it common enough to assume you might have to set the rig free each time you relaunch or not? If you are prepared for the possibility if it is significant it is better.

For years I have said the risk of kiteboarding should stay with the rider, thinking about kite leashes. If you take steps to avoid tangling wing tips on flat kites, things like assisted launches, preflighting, using newer systems, how common should this scenario be? No one wants to hurt bystanders, nor themselves either. Best to learn and use due care to try to avoid hurting either, that is the point of this thread.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


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