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Is there any REAL evidence?

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avelos0001
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Postby avelos0001 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:28 am

Yes there is evidence, largely tied up in due process or a base approximation of it, hidden from view. This is a forum with some facts, lots of speculation and importantly some comments from former associates, employees and customers of the two concerns. We won't get to see many court docs aside from what guys retrieve online from the Indiana system, which isn't hard to do.

Trying to create reasonable doubt, blunt this issues, create some gray area? Sounds like normal litigation, buyer beware.

Why take this crap to Indiana with so much kiteboarding? It costs, put an atty. on retainer in your home state, hire another in Indiana for another retainer, say $5000 to 10,000+ per retainer (10 to 20K+ just for starters). Not many small operations have the cash for this.

Say no defense is offered for lack of cash if reel files suit, it becomes easy to get a favorable summary judgment (victory) in the absence of opposition. Why bother? Say KHK settles for 10000 and another for something about the same. Having some of the leg work done in house cuts Plantiffs costs significantly. There can be some recycling of pleadings and further economization. Take on up to 20 shops, maybe get cash settlements from a handful and dish out a nasty blackeye to the rest. Market domination through a frivolous malicious suit and maybe even making a profit over your own legal costs. Most suits seem to be frivolous, this seems to be in line with that. Lots of viable alterior motives that have nothing to do with trademark infringement, just an excuse to beat up some competitors.

If you like this gangster behavior to continue and expand ---

DO continue to start dozens of posts everyday.
People get bored, tune repeated shit out and move on. You are real close to doing this at this point. Do a few impacting posts a week or less for a few months. Don't force guys to ignore this.

Listen to this reasonable doubt crap.
Facts are few but there are some strong ones out already. Read what people have said and make your own mind up. If you don't like what is happening after this then send your message real clear by withholding business.

The small guys that were notice but not served should continue to keep their info to themselves.
There are ways to share your information here, let it out without identifying yourselves unduly

The courts are one thing and move at a snails pace at tremendous expense. Who has the most bucks and resolve wins. The court of Public opinion reaches way beyond that and can impose harsh penalties on the offender that might never come from the legal system but perhaps should.

Read things over, make up your mind and do what you think is right.

avelos0001
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Postby avelos0001 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:29 am

Yes there is evidence, largely tied up in due process or a base approximation of it, hidden from view. This is a forum with some facts, lots of speculation and importantly some comments from former associates, employees and customers of the two concerns. We won't get to see many court docs aside from what guys retrieve online from the Indiana system, which isn't hard to do.

Trying to create reasonable doubt, blunt this issues, create some gray area? Sounds like normal litigation, buyer beware.

Why take this crap to Indiana with so much kiteboarding? It costs, put an atty. on retainer in your home state, hire another in Indiana for another retainer, say $5000 to 10,000+ per retainer (10 to 20K+ just for starters). Not many small operations have the cash for this.

Say no defense is offered for lack of cash if reel files suit, it becomes easy to get a favorable summary judgment (victory) in the absence of opposition. Why bother? Say KHK settles for 10000 and another for something about the same. Having some of the leg work done in house cuts Plantiffs costs significantly. There can be some recycling of pleadings and further economization. Take on up to 20 shops, maybe get cash settlements from a handful and dish out a nasty blackeye to the rest. Market domination through a frivolous malicious suit and maybe even making a profit over your own legal costs. Most suits seem to be frivolous, this seems to be in line with that. Lots of viable alterior motives that have nothing to do with trademark infringement, just an excuse to beat up some competitors.

If you like this gangster behavior to continue and expand ---

DO continue to start dozens of posts everyday.
People get bored, tune repeated shit out and move on. You are real close to doing this at this point. Do a few impacting posts a week or less for a few months. Don't force guys to ignore this.

Listen to this reasonable doubt crap.
Facts are few but there are some strong ones out already. Read what people have said and make your own mind up. If you don't like what is happening after this then send your message real clear by withholding business.

The small guys that were notice but not served should continue to keep their info to themselves.
There are ways to share your information here, let it out without identifying yourselves unduly

The courts are one thing and move at a snails pace at tremendous expense. Who has the most bucks and resolve wins. The court of Public opinion reaches way beyond that and can impose harsh penalties on the offender that might never come from the legal system but perhaps should.

Read things over, make up your mind and do what you think is right.

k2ski3
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Postby k2ski3 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:20 am

Scott,
I am not here defending Real's actions, I am clarifying there was a letter since the question keeps coming up.

Why are you taking this all so personally and trying to twist people's statements to vilify them?

No, we were not on the original defendant list but I became aware of the situation in July when Daryl personally called both my partner & I to discuss the letter. I pro-actively contacted Real and discussed the issue with their legal council to avoid any legal issues of my own.

I'm sorry I don't have the love for EK that you do. Their aggressive competitive behavior is financially straining to numerous retailers/schools including my own. I also feel EK's business practices could potentially hurt the sport's success if they deter new instructors from opening & operating businesses near prime riding locations.

I have nothing against Daryl or any other person at EK as this is a business issue. At the end of the day, we all share the same passion. Unfortunately business can get ugly as it did in this case.

Skyway Scott

Postby Skyway Scott » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:47 am

I am not attempting to vilify anyone, including you.
What statements of yours have I twisted?
You have claimed a cease and desist letter was sent out to EK in July.
I am saying "Well, that's interesting, to the best of my knowledge, Water Time wasn't trademarked until after July".
I was asking you how that is possible to ask someone to legally stop the use of that which you don't "own" yet.
I am honestly confused on what grounds EK is getting sued and asking you to clarify. The grounds I have been told seem SO ridiculous, that part of me is actually hoping to hear a better reason so my head won't hurt anymore from it trying to wrap the sheer stupidity of the situation.
You appear to be in the know. I am just asking, not twisting anything.
I am addressing your claims directly, because they conflict with my information.

In terms of taking it personally.
I am not the only one offended by this situation.
But, I confess, I like EK. I was a loyal customer for years when Daryl asked me to work for him. While working closely (crammed in a fairly small back office at times) with Daryl and Kristen for six months, day in and out, I grew to respect them even more. I could tell story after story about those two and their generosity and honesty. Both toward me, the customers and all they are involved with. They do business pretty straight up, imo. They have a pretty simple business plan. It doesn't involve too much more than showing up and giving it 100% every day.
It works though. I would still be there if it wasn't for personal circumstances regarding my house and girl friend.

If you know of something dark and sordid about them, just say it.
They won't sue you. It's not their style.

You have expressed that you believe that EK is killing local, small shops chances at being successful.
Why should EK be singled out when there are currently a slew of online shops, many (unlike EK) with no store fronts/overhead and no past history of providing good customer service.
Why do you have it so bad toward EK? Is it because they are successful? I feel a lot more strongly against shops that are online with no overhead or "shops" that are nothing more than a truck.
But, that's just me. Extreme Kites has been a successful retailer for a long time. They deserve their success after all that has been put in to it.
Real more than likely deserves the same for their school.
Why the two are tangling is confusing.

Anyway, I believe they didn't receive a "warning" letter.
I think it's a mute point, anyway. How EK has become entrapped in a Trademark Infringement suit brought by Real is the larger issue.
Most have already come to a consensus that the issue is ugly and probably uncalled for. But who knows, maybe an unforeseen and as yet dark secret will be revealed. A crime so intense, so dark, that only the lawyers in (Indiana is it) could resolve it. I some how doubt it, though.

I am passionate about riding, as are you. I think ultimately, a lot of what drives me to support Daryl and crew is that they were the first kite shop I encountered that made serious attempts to keep me on the water by looking after warranty issues, getting me gear, etc.
Before I ran into this shop, I can honestly say the lack of drive of other shops lost me a lot of water time. I hated that and love having a great shop I can depend on. I cringe at the thought of losing it.

Jurriaan
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Postby Jurriaan » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:48 am

I believe that the rigths belong to Major Tom!!!!!! They contacted him!

I will contact David, see if he can claim some rights!

Ground Control to Major Tom
Ground Control to Major Tom
Take your protein pills and put your helmet on

Ground Control to Major Tom
Commencing countdown, engines on
Check ignition and may God’s love be with you

Spoken:
Ten, Nine, Eight, Seven, Six, Five, Four, Three, Two, One, Lift-off

This is Ground Control to Major Tom
You’ve really made the grade
And the papers want to know whose shirts you wear
Now it’s time to leave the capsule if you dare

“This is Major Tom to Ground Control
I’m stepping through the door
And I’m floating in a most peculiar way
And the stars look very different today

etc.etc.

Or is reel going to sue David too!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

Jurriaan
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Postby Jurriaan » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:50 am

btw, never really realized that grund ctr was in the kiteboarding business, and advised Tom to put a helmet on!!!!!

Those are visionairs!!!!!

Raider
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Postby Raider » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:28 am

"You have claimed a cease and desist letter was sent out to EK in July.
I am saying "Well, that's interesting, to the best of my knowledge, Water Time wasn't trademarked until after July". "


o-oh

anything you say, can and will be used against you in a court of law

:thumb:

kitester
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Postby kitester » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:29 pm

This whole business is a sad comment on how the industry can suddenly turn on itself. We have honest, hard working people who have provided great services and equipment to so many people who enjoy the sport. its easy to find people all over the world who have great respect and praise for all the parties involved in this trouble. Unfortunatly all of us will be the victims of a system that is supposed to protect us. As pointed out already the extra expense of beginning leagal action and the expense of defense will be passed ultimately on to the end users, us. Directly the cost could be small but, in the long run the cost will filter down to all of us in greater ways. Companies who wish to do business will find it necessary to buy insurance to protect them agianst this sort of thing. That cost too is passed on and we pay a higher price. The lure of money and greed have always driven people to the absurd and the litigation system can enable and even encourage it. It is a shame that simple comunication cant be the cure. A phone call or e-mail could avoid so much extra cost and bad feelings between people of the same mind who really share the same goal. I have talked to people on the beach, the grass roots of our sport, and found that everyone of them feel this is a black eye and very distastefull. There is another cost approaching. Distrust and resentment will take its toll. Already we are beginning to see opinions forming and sides being taken among us. Its one thing to stand in one camp or the other when it comes to what kind of gear or brand suits you. Its another to be forced to take sides for something that is really a non-issue. Ask yourself who actualy gains by this. Ask yourself who actualy loses.

Raider
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Postby Raider » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:43 pm

I agree.
But, nobody is forcing anybody to take sides. People are just expressing their opinion, exactly the same way as the people in your beach told you theirs.
This whole thing is pathetic, and sad.

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2talented
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Postby 2talented » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:57 pm

Pathetic and sad yes, but more interesting than watching the OJ trial, again,um i mean again again.


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