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 Post subject: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:09 pm
Posts: 11
About me:
I am a casual rider, i go out 2 times a week on the average since 2003. Mostly flat water/bumby conditions (Baltic sea). Not on lakes. Sometimes waves up to 4m (Capetown). Any kind of wind conditions.

I dont do competitions and are not selling kites or are involved in any other matter with a company.
I like doing tricks, but mainly old school stuff, rotations, board offs etc. Tried raileys but don't do handle-passes.

I owned approx. 16 kites so far.
Mostly flysurfers, warrior/mastair, pyscho1, psycho2, pulse1, a few Peter Lynn's (Phantom,guerilla,venoms) and in the beginnings a cant remeber RAM-Air kite.

Now i bought a Caution Answer Tube Kite in 12sqm (a SLE, between C-shape and bow) mainly for waves. Been out with it 4 times now.

First of all my expression of the Caution Answer, which i think will be similar with all Tube kites
1. Tubes suck. Pumping is a bit annoying, but ok thats how it is. On the other hand the handling on the beach is bit more easy, cause of the rigid structure. More annoying is the fact, that the tubes can get punctured, actually freaks me out. I am very worried handling the kite on beaches with not perfect smooth clean sand (and than this octopus system..., one hole, kite drops, sessions over). The kite really seems fragile compared to my flysurfers, which are nearly indestructible (up to 200 sessions with my 9 an 12 sqm Psycho1), still flying...
What i really dislike is, that repairing a punctuered tube is way more difficult than repairing a broken foil. Have seen a tube repair/exchange a few times...
2. Turning behaviour. The reason i bought the kite. Seems my expectations are fullfilled. Very responsive. Turns really fast at all positions in the wind window.
This is similar to a Peter Lynn, but its response comes definitely quicker, with less delay. This is not a surprise.
Big difference to lynns: lynns like turning upwards, tubes downwards...
Flysurfers respond faster than the lynns, but still slower then the caution. Also the turning behaviour of a flysurfer depends more on its position in the wind window and the turning speed is lower, which means the radius bigger in comparison with tubes or lynns.
Even the newer Flysurfers like the Pulse (owned one for 4 months) can't compete in turning behaviour with a lynn or the tube. With a more C-shape kite flysurfer will make up a bit of ground, but the rigidity due to the tubes is here a clear advantage.

I only write here about turning behaviour and reliability/ease of repair, because other issues depend too much on the brand and model of the specific kite.

Generally, if your main concern is fast very responsive turning behaviour, go for a tube kite.
Otherwise the foils have the real big advantage of easy repair (well, the lynns still can explode internally, which is not easy to repair, but at least it keeps flying).
Concerning all other issues, like stability, depower behaviour, grunt, speed, upwind ability, water start, float, jumping behaviour there is no general advantage or disadvantage between foils and tubes. Its a matter of brand, model and personal taste.

I will stick to foils for extreme winds.
In very low wind there is nothing right now, that can compete with the big flysurfers and in strong winds i like the lynns, because they have very low power per square meter, which means less sensitive to gusts and not too nervous. The smaller turning delay in strong winds, doesn't matter that much (well i have to see), otherwise they behave like the SLE (well depower is not that direct).

Sorry, foil lovers, tubes have advantages...


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:48 pm
Posts: 250
Quote:
Even the newer Flysurfers like the Pulse (owned one for 4 months) can't compete in turning behaviour with a lynn or the tube.


Pulse1 or Pulse2 ?

Quote:
Sorry, foil lovers, tubes have advantages...


sorry ? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:09 pm
Posts: 11
It was a pulse1, actually bought it because of its so great turning speed and wave/new school abilities.

Liked it so much, that i tried to sell it after 3 months... Its smallest turning radius is ridicoulisly large compared with new school tubes, which turn on the spot almost and more independent of the current wind/power. Othwerise it was a nice kite, but for that price... It also felt to have not that good upwind abilities compared to all the other kites i have been out with. I really needed to be powered well not just powered.

Of course the pulse2 will be better, but its rather unlikely that it improved that much.
Have tried almost all flysurfer kites and yes they improve from year to year, but not that much.


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 8:28 am
Posts: 210
Location: NL
I have replaced my Venom 10 with a Answer2 9. They have more in common then you would think.

Same range, speed, packing size.
After you steer them down when waterstarting they both have a moment where they don't have power, (the kite stalls a bit, doesn't happen if you have some boardspeed)

Differences:
The answer is not stable at the zenith when you let go of the bar.
Assisted launch, I never figured out how to do this with a venom and some spots don't have space for a selflaunch.


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:39 am
Posts: 148
Location: New York City
Try a pulse2... it is improved that much. Turning speed on these things is perfect, flying it back to back with a waroo07 of the same size the turning speed is identical and the bar pressure is about the same too... much shorter bar throw which is nice...
The psycho4, armin claims, will be the fastest turning kite out there... we'll see :)
The pulse2 is definitely in the realms of SLE kites though, not up there with modern C-Kites yet though...


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:48 pm
Posts: 250
Quote:
but its rather unlikely that it improved that much.


In fact, it did !
Give it a try.


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 843
I agree with domdino, Pulse2 turns like SLE/Bow kites, not yet C kite speed but it is nice and fast, first foils that I think is finally fast. but we have no wind :(


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:23 am
Posts: 3332
Location: The United Mistakes of America
There's more to life than turning speed. If that was all there is to great kitesurfing, everyone (100%) would still use C's, they turn the fastest. The reason bows came along is because so many of us wanted things other than pure turning speed - like not having to pump a different size (or edge for dear life) every time the wind changed strength. Fair trade, IMO.

You hit the nail on the head with reliability - there is talk about "endless tweaking", but I have spent far less maintenance time on (and gotten far more life from) my foils. And much of that "maintenance" is optimization, not resuscitation. If I had a dime for every "slow leak" I have seen... :roll:

But I think you understate the light wind advantage foils have - it's not simply more low-end, it's more power/performance/FUN in the light stuff, long before tubes are happy. Obviously this is a non-issue for spots that blow strong most of the time, and/or for riders who have lots of time and can cherry-pick the best days, but for average working stiffs at average kiting spots, that kind of light-wind advantage is often the difference between riding or not, having fun or not.


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2003 1:00 am
Posts: 719
All ram lovers eventually realise the superiority of inflatables.

Even some of the most dedicated ram zealots above have acknowledged the inferior turning speed of ALL ram airs.

Just for the record, repairs are NOT easier with ram airs. eg See the thread "Flysurfer Warrior Exploding."

Ignore the lies and propaganda. Inflatables are vastly superior to ram airs.


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 Post subject: Re: A Foil Freaks XP with his new Tube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:06 pm
Posts: 465
Location: Dallas, Texas
My friend who just sent his FS to Europe for repair may disagree about the ease of repair. I can repair a lot of bladders for the thousand or more dollar price difference between my SLE and his FS.


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