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 Post subject: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 6:09 pm 
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Location: Upstate New York
As a nube, we find out immediately how sheeting in and out powers and depowers the kite. But it also moves the kite deeper into the wind window vs toward the edge, and I suspect that this is more nuanced. Wondering how people utilize sheeting in/out to move the kite in the wind window when jumping, going upwind, etc. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:17 pm
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When Jumping it all depends on the type of jump you are doing. If just want to boost high and float a bit, then its more about the load n pop technique more so than sheeting. But once you dial in the load n pop, its a quick aggressive sheet in, float then out as landing. If you keep it sheeted in as you are landing, you will choke the kite and stall (if its over your head or behind you) or carry too much power (if its fwd in the window). So it needs that little bit of out sheet as landing so it can catch wind and allow you to motor on as you land. A backroll jump, as an example, for me I sheet in less than a regular boost. Then sheet out immediately after the load n pop. If you keep too much sheet in on the backroll you will over spin (this is actually how I learned the double back roll). Also want to apply a little left hand pressure on the landing (assuming left foot fwd jump) so the kite doesn't get behind you and back stall. Fun Jumping is a perfect cocktail of board speed, kite positioning, load n pop, and sheeting. Basically.... Timing

Biggest tip when sheeting in and out for jumping is keep your hands in the middle of the bar - if you have your hands on the outside as a beginner, you will input too much turn to one side or another.

For upwind - its a feel thing. As you ride more you will know what inputs position the kite to the optimal spot for your board and water conditions. But again, I feel the key here is keep your hands toward the center of the bar. Avoids the kite getting erratic. I also see a lot of beginners choke the kite when stalling out on their board. You need to sheet it out a bit so it can catch wind then sheet in. When you get good at riding upwind you will notice your sheeting will be a couple inches in or out for optimal kite positioning. Lots of beginners do a lot of over sheeting hence erratic flight. And for upwind, its also a lot of the board, speed, water conditions, and edge technique. So while sheeting plays a role, there are other factors at play for optimal upwind riding.

Then on transition turn, as you redirect the kite (either from a standard transition or downloop) sheet the bar out fully as you start to plane in the opposite direction as it will be powered up as it rips through the power zone from left to right or vice versa. Lots of beginners face plant on the transition because they keep the bar sheeted in during transition and too much power or don't have their weight shifted at the right moment. Again... timing.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:14 pm
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Don't worry about it. You can't really move your kite forward or back in the window in a useful manner just by sheeting in or out. The kite is going to fly where it flys. Sheet for power and forget about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 9:20 pm 
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There is no such thing as powering and depowering a kite. It is all marketing BS. Your right about changing where the kite sits in the wind window and that is what trimming your kite is for.

Kites are designed to fly at certain angle to the wind. The greater the wind gets the more you have trim the kite do to the drag pushing the kite back in the wind window. By trimming your kite you are maximizing the efficiency of the foil.

Wind speed and kite size are what gives you power not your trim. No wind no power, lots of wind lots of power.

Easiest way to think of trimming is to adjust to keep your bar in a comfortable spot. As the wind picks up and you find your arms further out pull your "depower" (hate that term) until your arms in a comfortable spot. Wind gets lighter do the same in the reverse action. If you have more 8" pulled in you probably need a smaller kite.

So for all the people that are going to flame me about depower. Yes the kite does depower if you over trim and that is because now the kite is at an inefficient angle to the wind and flies like shit.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 9:34 pm 
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Location: Ontario
not really flaming you, but I think you have it a little rigid. Like any wing, kites have a range of AOA in which they work. Kites also change shape pretty drastically depending on rear line tension. You play all three, shape, AOA and position in the window to produce or shed power at any given moment. The all do it the same only a little different!


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 9:51 pm 
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TheJoe wrote:
There is no such thing as powering and depowering a kite.
So next let's address trim in terms of laminar flow. Rather than "depower" maybe we could call it "delaminarizing" or "deefficiencyizing". The finer details of fluid dynamics are lost on most (including me). As a life long competitive sailor I've never "depowered" a sail. I've trimmed or eased the sail in order to maximize efficiency of the sail (we change AoA several different ways). In the same light, I've adopted the term "depower" in kiting because that is the term used.

I do think there is a psychological aspect to this since we directly feel the affect of trimming/easing as a factor of increased force or reduced force from the kite. It seems logical to call this force "power".

So I agreed, disagreed and capitulated all in one post!! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 10:06 pm 
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randycasburn wrote:
TheJoe wrote:
There is no such thing as powering and depowering a kite.
So next let's address trim in terms of laminar flow. Rather than "depower" maybe we could call it "delaminarizing" or "deefficiencyizing". The finer details of fluid dynamics are lost on most (including me). As a life long competitive sailor I've never "depowered" a sail. I've trimmed or eased the sail in order to maximize efficiency of the sail (we change AoA several different ways). In the same light, I've adopted the term "depower" in kiting because that is the term used.

I do think there is a psychological aspect to this since we directly feel the affect of trimming/easing as a factor of increased force or reduced force from the kite. It seems logical to call this force "power".

So I agreed, disagreed and capitulated all in one post!! :D


I understand what you are saying. The only problem is that people that do not are the people that put themselves and others at risk by flying kites that are too big for the conditions. Add in kites that have below the bar trim and the risk for people to fly a kite way to big for the wind speed increases.

I know there are people that are skilled and do this on purpose like Toby and especially the speed racers going out for the fastest times. It's the average weekend warrior where the danger comes in to play.

So my biggest problem with the term its self is it's false since of security to people learning, people that don't get out that often, and novices.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 11:16 pm 
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Location: Ontario
randycasburn wrote:
As a life long competitive sailor I've never "depowered" a sail. I've trimmed or eased the sail in order to maximize efficiency of the sail (we change AoA several different ways).


In a boat, or at least competitively, you're always trying to max your boat speed at whatever point of sail. The hull dynamics are pretty different too. Kiting its nothing like that unless your racing. We get kites to sine for power, pull steady, spike straight up, loop straight down wind, shut off, drift, pivot and point in ways that are totally removed from pulling in the main.

Its not fluid dynamics, its a fluid dynamics acting 24m away at a variable angle to a highly variable, and agile centre of effort. Its pretty cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 1:58 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:29 am
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+1 for that. It's way cool and way too complex to really describe or rationalize while doing it. You can think about it later and realize what you've done, but at the time there's no time to sit back and contemplate your actions. It's all trained reaction or you're swimming!


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 Post subject: Re: Sheeting in/out question
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 5:52 am 
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Starsky wrote:
yada yada
Of course it is remarkably different silly. I ignored everything except the "sail" in each equation so I could make a point about terminology. TheJoe got the point just as I got his. It was a cordial exchange. I appreciate your brilliance unless it is confusing...thus:
Starsky wrote:
...Its not fluid dynamics, its a fluid dynamics ...
:thumb: :lol:


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