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 Post subject: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:52 am 
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Hi,

A member of a Brazilian forum has questioned about the shift system and whether it is possible or not to use it with other kites rather than Naish kites only, more specifically, a kiteloose wtribe kite. What is the basic characteristic of the shift system? Does it have any peculiar property that makes it only suitable to Naish kites? Please somebody elaborate, or post a link where I can find detailed information about using the shift system with other types of kites.

Cheers
Andre Soares


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:21 am 
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hey, I dunno anything about the kite or brand that you are mentioning, but most newer kites shoulfd be able to use the shift bar.

What makes the shift bar "special" is that the front lines are, instead of being attached directly to the bar, making a sort of a y, since the front lines are attached to a single line a little further up, to limits the kite ability to jellyfish or flaring out. Some kites are have a wider arch ot they have the front attachent points a further out something that might affect performance. This would be more prevalent in large kites.

Most c-kites should be able to handle it...the person might have to adjust the front line lengths if the kite he uses it on required the front and back lines to be of different length.

a.


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:47 pm 
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Very instructive reply ... I have a few questions though...

There have been several "Shift System" bar since 2006.
Below is the the Naish Shift System bar for Torch and sigma Alliance 08. I had a look at the user manual on the Naish site to understand what you meant by "Y". Looks like the North 5th element in fact ....
http://www.naishkites.com/pdf/08ShiftKiteManual.pdf, 6 languages, 31Mb, 84p :(
http://www.naishkites.com/pdf/08ShiftKiteManual.pdf

I would like to know if the retrofit 08 Smart loop adapts nicely a 07 double depower bar ?
The retrofit Smart Loop uses such a thick chicken loop rope (doubled) that I wonder if the 07 bar has a suitable hole to receive this thickness + the 5th line extremity... :o
What advantages does the Smart Loop offers compared to the original depower strap ?

Is the retrofit Sm Loop worth the investment ? I mean provided the C-kite on which you use bar has a huge depower, does the extra depower offered by the huge Smart loop chicken length compensates the depower got by decreasing the 5th line with double depower ?
Can we say that the Naish Torch is in 08 the C kite with the best depower on the market with or without Smart loop ?

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:06 pm 
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I ride the Double Depower Bar, so I can only guess about the simple shift system with the smart loop. Compared to the original pull/pull depower strap it gives you a longer depower stroke. How functional that is while riding I don´t know because if you want to maintain a good body stance the depower stroke is limited by your arm length. At least that is how I ride and further depower comes through edging with the board.

Using the depower rope below the bar you can probably depower the kite much more extremly compared to the strap but again that might only work until the back lines are so slack that you cannot steer anymore.

However it might be more comfortable to depower even while riding as you don´t have to reach up.

I personally like the double depower a lot (2007 bar) as it is a nice safety feature.

Dirk


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Europ2 wrote:
Can we say that the Naish Torch is in 08 the C kite with the best depower on the market with or without Smart loop ?

Image



There was a test in a German kite magazine between the Naish Torch 08 and North Vegas 08 which said that the Vegas would depower more because of its bar as they tested the Torch without the smart loop. And they thought with the smart loop it would be probably similar.


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:37 pm 
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05, 06 and 07 Shift bar is suitable for any 5 line C kite. It is basically the same as the old style North 5th Element.
The 05, 06 and 07 Shift bars are not really suitable for SLE kites as the depower throw isn't long enough to make full use of the depower, although it can still be used. You could use the early shift system for example on a North Rebel but you won't be able to use all the depower that the kite has as the bar travel isn't long enough.
The 2008 bar comes in 2 guises IIRC. You have the standard shift (ie non smart loop) basically the same as the 05, 06 and 07 with a standard depower strap and the updated bar and bar float etc
You then have the smartloop shift system. It is a 5 line bar with the depower under the bar, but has a stopper so you can adjust the bar travel - so if you were using it on a C kite you would have the stopper quite far down, if you was using it on a SLE (ie Alliance, Rebel etc ) you can move the stopper away and have loads more depower.
The front lines, as mentioned, form a Y. The 5th line has a stopper on it that buts up against this Y which keeps the front lines and the 5th line above the Y all the same length. This is needed as the 5th line on the Naish Torch, Alliance, Rebel and some other kites have to support the shape of the leading edge.
So going back to your original question, the Smartloop Shift System can be used on other 5 line kites 1. there is nothing special about it thats stops it being used on other kites and 2. it has the long bar stroke required by high depower kites. The only other problem is that it doesn't have any o shit handles so if you wanted to use it on a 4 line SLE you could remove the 5th line but the only safety you would have would be reliant on the full depower that you get when you let go of the bar.
The solution to this would be to fit O shit handles, which isn't hard to do.

Quote:
What advantages does the Smart Loop offers compared to the original depower strap ?


Basically It allows easier adjusting of the power on SLE kites. With SLE kites you need longer bar travel, but this means that if you use a conventional above the bar depower strap it can be really hard to reach, the Smartloop puts the depower below the bar where it is easier to adjust.

If you look at a Best Waroo bar the depower strap is quite high up and it can be really hard to reach it.

If you nave a SLE kite then its really worth while, if you have a C kite like the Torch like me then I prefer the standard strap system as there is less cluter at teh chicken loop for unhooking and I can reach the strap really easy as the bar travel isn't that long

Hope this makes sense and hopefully I've got it right and am not talking out of my arse :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:08 pm 
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Thanks to all of you for these detailed answers :thumb:

JGTR wrote:
.... The only other problem is that it doesn't have any o shit handles so if you wanted to use it on a 4 line SLE you could remove the 5th line but the only safety you would have would be reliant on the full depower that you get when you let go of the bar.
The solution to this would be to fit O shit handles, which isn't hard to do.

A really good point...

Dirk wrote:
I personally like the double depower a lot (2007 bar) as it is a nice safety feature.

In fact, I have a good opportunity to get the double depower bar but don't have it yet. Therefore my questions about the way to improve it.
Dirk, could you please measure the depower length without activation of the dble depower and measure the dble depower range.
If you force the bar in the dble depower zone by 10cm, how much does it really decrease the 5th line length, 10cm also or less ?


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:23 am 
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Hi, thank you all for replying. I'm not a user of the shift system, but I'm sure you have helped a lot, I'm translating your comments and passing them to our Brazilian forum, where a Brazilian user posted a question, along with a link to this topic.

Andre Soares
http://www.kiteforum.com.br


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:30 pm 
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Europ2 wrote:
Thanks to all of you for these detailed answers :thumb:

Dirk wrote:
I personally like the double depower a lot (2007 bar) as it is a nice safety feature.

In fact, I have a good opportunity to get the double depower bar but don't have it yet. Therefore my questions about the way to improve it.
Dirk, could you please measure the depower length without activation of the dble depower and measure the dble depower range.
If you force the bar in the dble depower zone by 10cm, how much does it really decrease the 5th line length, 10cm also or less ?


Normal depower stroke without activating the double depower system is 23 cm. Additional depower way by the dd system is 17 cm until you reach the knot where the depower straps are fixed. 5th line gets shorter by approx 16cm at the maximum depower way..

Dirk


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 Post subject: Re: Shift system adapted to be used with different kite brands
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:54 pm 
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Well I have a Naish shift system that I have been using on a couple of Best Bularoo's, I bought the Smart loop version as I find it a real pain trying to reach up for the depower strap. I have removed the 5th line entirely and I use a suicide leash setup that I connect to the end toggle on the depower line, hence when you bail from the chicken loop you get full de-power and all the trim possible from the system which makes the kite totally depower and it basically falls from the sky.

This works really well, the only concern I have with using the bar is that the front lines are at quite a tight angle due to the single front line that splits about half way towards the kite. My only worry is it may affect the kites flying characteristics due to the angle the front lines are at and the way this may alter the effectiveness of the bridle in flight or re-launch??? I'm no kite designer but I assume that when Best made the Bularoo bridle it was to fly on their Bar and line setup.

I have only flown the kites in fairly light winds so far and they were varying from about 8mph to around 20mph very on/off and I put this down as my main reason for difficulty in relaunching the kite. I have asked Best and this is where they said I may find some answers...

Thanks for any input :D


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