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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:40 am 
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Toby wrote:
Satan: the wind got stronger, if gust or not, it was too much and too onshore for the guys riding. Fact.
Have you ever put only 1% off the work of Rick into all of this, trying to make people aware of the dangers and helping with options to survive situations like this?
You don't even use your own name, hide behind a virtual name. Why should anyone pay attention to what you say?

Quote:
The prudent kiter will bring his kite low, and pull the plug when approaching the shore in sever weather.


isn't that what Rick is saying? Isn't that what has been discussed in another topic already? So we agree on it.

Satan: you don't agree...what would you have done in this situation?


Toby, the simple fact is Rick made stuff up about this accident to fit his model of how accidents happen. When I pointed that out he instantly laid into a personal attack against me and posted a bunch of crap to promote himself. This is what he does when anyone disagrees with him. This is helping no one in this sport.

This business about having the kite low will save your ass is a complete myth. Promoting it doesn't help anyone.

First going out in such conditions was risky but was not the primary cause of the accident. The primary cause of the accident was oversteering the kite when overpowered. Once out, when the wind got weird, he should have unhooked and been using a 5th line leash or some sort of leash where he is confident the kite would flag. When he didn't do that, he definitely should not have sent the kite like you would for a jump. Once airborne, he should have let go of the bar.

Keeping the kite low would not have helped him. Rick claiming there was some sudden 70 knot gust out of nowhere that "lofted" him is a lie.

Rick is all into safety, but yet he holds the bar at the end which facilitates oversteering the kite. Before he starts "calling the pot black", he should look at himself.


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:43 pm 
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if 50 or 70 gusts...who cares? It was a gust or continuous increasing wind...too strong.

If you know it all better, where is your summary? You can post it as well and suggest how to handle situations like this? It is easy to criticize after someone did the work. The initial work is the hardest to do...

As I know how Rick works, he tries to get as many facts together as possible. It is a long research and contacts people around the world to get as good info as possible, then makes the write up and posts it. Sure, he has his mind if it comes to safety, but in my opinion it is shared by at least 95%.

And guess what, even me, I would have kept the kite low! Because in a situation like this it is the best thing to do! And no one can catch the kite in time, I would release the QR.

And stop this BS about Rick's hands on the bar. He is riding, not launching and landing! This doesn't give you any credit for constructional criticism.

Back to the topic!


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:30 pm 
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Toby look at the wind graph. The wind maxed out at something like 30 mph (35 mph I don't remember). Rick altered the data to fit his brand. This is a disservice to the kiting community. In the long run it's bad for his credibility. I'm doing him a favor.

I just find it ironic and pretty funny that the accident was caused by oversteering the kite, yet he holds the bar at the ends and thinks he's Mr. Safety.

He won't comment on any of this because he knows I'm right. Instead he instantly launches into personal attacks to change the subject. He always does this to any dissent. He would make a good politician.

And yes, even if Rick doesn't think so, it's important that people learn that most of these "lofting" accidents are caused by oversteering the kite.

Since you ask, I would have had the kite low because there was nice sand with good traction and that is where the kite would have been when I was coming in. But kite high or kite low would not have mattered in this and most other situations. I would have unhooked and have been holding the kite by the C-loop until someone came to grab it. Or if things looked super sketchy I would have flagged the kite while still in the water.


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:36 pm 
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afflatus wrote:
Gee rick,

If you'd wish you make it in the media game, you'll need to stop getting defensive.

Think this through... a page or two ago, you said kevin sent his kite intentionally--a beach jump.

Now it's poor technique? he went fucking huge!!!


Haha, very funny deflatus. Surely Rick meant his technique was poor in that he did not immediately flag his kite to one line? Not his stupid beach jump, and it sure looked to me like he did jump deliberately in the video

afflatus wrote:
you also said the low bro was dragged over 30 meters, and would have continued to be dragged, had not someone grabbed his kite.

Once on shore, waiting around for a grab with a low kite is no hedge against misadventure in impending gale force wind !

No, it is the misadventure, > ...he was dragged over 30 meters, and would have continued to be dragged, had not someone grabbed his kite. "


The low bro was either frozen, or could see people coming to grab his kite and and wisely or wrongly chose to keep it low for them to grab.
His first mistake was being out there and ignoring the squall line was his second, third was not releasing to one line as soon as he made land.


afflatus wrote:
rick, think it over ...

The whole concept of --- keep it low and go--- was, and is intended as "good" advise:

(thanks Tom in Ca.) The prudent kiter will

Launch and leave the beach ASAP.

This makes perfect sense, and should also apply to coming back.

The prudent kiter will bring his kite low, and pull the plug when approaching the shore in sever weather.

Keep it low and blow it off, before you get to danger.!!!!!!!!!!!!


Correct, no argument. This is also the only valid comment from you in this post of yours to Rick, the rest is just your usual self promoting, condescending, vengeance or jealousy, driven drivel.

afflatus wrote:
I don't see why you cannot let it go, this whole "it works thing" is only good advice for when you're out in the deep, and it does work up to a point...

Gee rick, why argue for a low kite as a viable land solution? when it only results in a delayed response?

Like it did here !!

I just don't understand you sometimes, really, what are you thinking? don't quit your day job...
fo-kite-n


Seems to me you have little ability to understand your brothers at all, you seem to think you are a power above the rest of us, and you are the divinely inspired saviour of all kiters, why else would you call yourself "afflatus".
Do you have a day job, or a real job at all?
Or are you a "special" person with special powers, and instructed to criticise without integrity? A sellout to your inflated view of yourself?


afflatus wrote:
PS and this piece of transcription??? Some people don't think, chronically.

that doesn't help your image either...
[/quote]

Childish, vengeful criticism does not help your image either putty tat.
You have a chonic problem too don't you?
Seems to me its about standing on your anonymously founded soapbox telling us all the fire is hot, when its so damned obvious, fire burns, and kiting is dangerous eh???


Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve :bye:


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:33 pm 
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I wasn't at the site at the time of the accident but about 18 miles to the north. The wind information and observations in the summary were largely provided by others. News accounts also reported winds of 40 to 50 kts.

The windgraph in the summary is on a fishing pier 4 miles south of the accident scene. The readings seem to be truncated as sometimes happens. The one shown below is closer at less than two miles away but is over a mile inland and subject to wind shadow which might alter readings.

The windgraph almost couple of miles south and over a mile inland shows a spike close to 40 kts. at the time of the accident. What happened at the accident scene? All we have are the observations of those who were there. It was a lot of wind, whatever it was. Neither kiter shown had a fifth line rig.

There is no mention of 70 kts. in my summary.


Here's a blast from the past, from over six years ago, May 2002 from "How To Try To Avoid Lofting." It is dated now but a lot of the ideas are still worth thinking about. The lady shown was standing kite parked a the zenith and was lofted a short distance in light 10 to 14 kts. winds. This was before quick releases were much in use and years before reliable quick releases were commonly in circulation. Different times, different tactics although some of the procedures from back then still make sense to a point.

Image Image

Super depower kites didn't exist either at least not commonly. If you were hooked in chances are you were screwed back then in a strong enough gust. Avoiding the hazard in the first place was key then as it is now. Take it easy Marty.

Image
Shannon Best was lofted about 100 ft. in 25 kts. with his kite at the zenith as well when a fairly minor summer squall struck. He would have likely flown further much further across the street and into powerlines had he not opted to free fall about 20 ft. to the sand before jetting past the beach.

Image
Pato flew about 800 ft. in 52 kts. from an obvious tropical system squall. He was trying to land but as in the current case waited too long to try to do so. A girl was killed and her sister injured while parasailing about 20 miles down the coast in this same squall line reportedly.

Image
The Great Lakes lofting in a squall. The low kite is holding ground, the high kite is flying and the kite to the far left even though depowered will drag the kiter a substantial distance. Everyone would have been better not being out with kites up in the first place. Hazardous weather was forecast and observed in other areas in the vicinity. Avoidance as always is key.


and many more.

The very first fatality that I heard of in kiteboarding eight years ago in France, involved a rider overpowered by a rising gust who accidentally induced a jump by bringing his kite up too quickly. Not hanking the kite up or more appropriately in this case, Emergency Depowering the kite early was the way to go. There is nothing new in this conclusion. There are lots of elements that go into kiting.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


Attachments:
File comment: Wind records from close to 2 miles south and over a mile inland from the accident site.
PTE 9.18.08.gif
PTE 9.18.08.gif [ 31.29 KIB | Viewed 1234 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:40 pm 
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With 52 knots it doesn't matter if you have the kite high or low, you are going for a ride.

Your example of the guy in France that had the kite low and took it up high you want to blame it on having the kite high. It's steering the kite too fast that does it.

If you are on sand having the kite low is fine. Most other surfaces having it high is better. A big danger of having the kite low is getting pulled over, losing your balance, and oversteering the kite. When the kite is high, it's much easier to keep your balance even when you get "lofted" a little. There are advantages and disadvantages to having the kite high or low. You refuse to look at both sides. The best place to put the kite depends on the situation.

In your account of the Fay accident, you made it clear that, in your opinion, it was a huge gust that took him for a ride, even though there was someone else holding down a kite the same size and people saw him quickly turn his kite like he wanted to do a jump. You can't admit your analysis of the accident was wrong. Your reputation as safety celebrity depends on it.

Rick you can post all the photos, diagrams, etc. that you want, but the fact remains you bent the truth to support your model when you presented this last accident.

I'm sorry I don't have a bunch of photos of people getting spanked while having their kites low, but I'm sure it happens at least as often as when people got it high.

Your so into helmets, impact vests, whistles, and God knows what else. It's funny you won't address holding the bar at the end.


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Threads like this show how easy it is to get caught up in minutiae and miss the big picture.

NOBODY should have been out that day. Do your NTSB thing all you want, that's the root cause.


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:01 pm 
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Tom183 wrote:
Threads like this show how easy it is to get caught up in minutiae and miss the big picture.

NOBODY should have been out that day. Do your NTSB thing all you want, that's the root cause.


True, no one should have had a kite up in those hazardous conditions but there were others, not sure how many statewide either (50, a hundred, more?). Then how about all the tropical systems over the last couple of years through the Caribbean and along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts of the USA, thousands?

People will go out in this stuff. They need to learn what to look for and what to avoid accepting that their risk greater in tropical weather season. If they can't be bothered to try understand and be aware of what is coming in, then they should avoid all tropical weather systems. Many will just blow it off and with some ending up in the ER and on the news.

The same could be said about guys ignoring squall lines associated with fronts. It is SO EASY to avoid squall lines and be set up with the right sized kite once the line passes. Despite that how many people bother?

We need to build better awareness and knowledge about weather planning. That and practicing good techniques, buffers, preflighting, kite size selection, handling, training to Emergency Depower without hesitation if they screw up in planning and monitoring and a lot more. Stuff you can't describe in a few sentences with any effectiveness.

This stuff is pretty straight forward, many use it already. To avoid more media spectacles and avoidable accidents it would be good to get more folks onboard with it.


"not hanking the kite up" = not pulling kite up too fast and initiating a jump
"Control vs. Kite and Bar Size"


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:03 pm 
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For the record, the French guy in Cabarete was bringing his kite down for a friend to catch when the 50 knot gust came and sent him for a ride. It was inches from his friend's hands. A 50 knot 3-hour sand storm ensued afterward. It had nothing to do with him oversteering.

Also, wind sensors are a guideline of what the wind is doing but are by no means 100% accurate! Maybe you are fortunate in your area that yours are spot on, but in my experience and local areas, it has to do with where it is placed, how often the sensor records wind speeds, how close it is to the actual riding area, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT WENT WRONG? Ft. Lauderdale Lofting Summary
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:08 pm 
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[quote]Keeping the kite low would not have helped him.[/quote] . . .

[quote]
Since you ask, I would have had the kite low because there was nice sand with good traction[/quote]

http://www.kiteforum.com/posting.php?mode=smilies&f=1#
:duh:

hmmm


I think the vast majority of the community can understand the approach that Rick is taking and understand where he is coming from. He is not a safety God or anything....but he makes alot of sense. Satan has some decent points as well but the animosity and misrepresentation of Rick lowers his credibility....in fact it lowers credibility for both.
http://www.kiteforum.com/posting.php?mode=smilies&f=1#
:duel:
the topic of safety is of primary importance for our sport.....stop turning into a mudslinging match.


To suggest that wind speed had little or nothing to do with the accident is ludicrous. Oversteering the kite in normal wind could have launched him no doubt....oversteering in overpowered conditions did launch him. Even Kevin recognized that the wind was getting dangerous .....that why he came to the beach in the first place.....the power of the wind had a MAJOR role in Kevins flight.


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