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 Post subject: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:57 pm 
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I´m was just reading this guide for how to trim your kite and I got a bit confused at one point:

This is what it says

Quote:
Keep in mind that most all kites are designed to achieve maximum power when the front and rear lines are even, or when the front lines are about 1-3 inches longer than the rear lines. You want to be able to achieve full power when the bar is in the position away from your body that you normally like to ride in. So if you normally like the to ride with the bar 6 inches away from your body, look at what distance the chicken loop is away from the bar when you hold the bar away from your body while hooked in. You may like the bar 6 inches away from your body, but that can equate to the chicken loop only being 3 inches away from touching the bar. So hook into the chicken loop, put the bar where you like to normally ride with it away from your body, and you look down and see what distance the chicken loop is away from touching the bar while there is tension on the lines. For this example lets say that the chicken loop is 3 inches away from the bar. You need to make whatever changes necessary for your lines to be even when the chicken loop is 3 inches away from the bar, with the adjusting strap all the way out fully powered up. If you find your kite achieves full power with the front lines 1-3 inches longer than the rear lines, then make the front lines longer by that much when the chicken loop is 3 inches away from touching the bar. This setup will get you in the ballpark.


I´m not sure if I understand this text correctly. Let's say that I prefer to ride with the bar halfway up on the throw. Then if I trim the kite for full power at this position what will then happen if I for example jump or loop the kite? It should result in "over power" if I pull the bar all the way in, right. With the consequence that the kite stalls easier...?

Is it just me that thinks this guide is a bit confusing?

wiki/index.php?title=Kite_Trimming_For_Maximum_Performance


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Never mind, I think I got it. I just realized when I read the whole text =)


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:25 pm 
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yes the guide is confusing. If you set up your bar for full power when it's positioned halfway, then if you do accidentally pull the bar all the way in it will fly backwards and drop rite into the power zone and who knows what will happen next. Some riders who feel the bar is too close just replace the chicken loop with a bigger one so that the kite is trimmed with equal lines.

Equal lines trimming is by far the easiest way to set things up.


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:41 pm 
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edt wrote:
yes the guide is confusing. If you set up your bar for full power when it's positioned halfway, then if you do accidentally pull the bar all the way in it will fly backwards and drop rite into the power zone and who knows what will happen next. Some riders who feel the bar is too close just replace the chicken loop with a bigger one so that the kite is trimmed with equal lines.

Equal lines trimming is by far the easiest way to set things up.


I dont agree - this is as individual as what type of kite and board we use :thumb:

Replacing the CL with a bigger one, is the worst thing one can do IMO, as you will decrease range and positioning options, and no advantages unless you are a beginner or ride unhooked.

Unhooked, it is another ballgame, I agree - and a bigger CL is necessary often, yes.

But hooked, it is individual, and you dont pull the bar fully in "accidentally" for long, unless you are a beginner.
But okay, they do it very often - I agree :-?

I prefer to have as much range as possible in my setup, and I also like to have my kites fully powered when sheeted out a lot, maybe not halfway, but sometimes close to halfway...

This gives so much better stance and controllability and pleasant in bottom turns, when riding waves in medium or lightly powered conditions.
And when going upwind, I prefer the opposite - having the kite depowered when fully sheeted in as close as possible towards me - so I can lean back relaxed 8)

This is only possible it you have a small CL and the kite can backstall if bar fully pulled when kite is trimmed full power - which is what I prefer because it gives more options for positioning and controlling the kite in waves, besides giving more hangtime in jumps.

Others dont like it this way - simply a personal thing.

:D Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:42 pm 
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You are right Grodan - quite confusing when you read it, but understandable though.

I just dont agree at all, that you can ever trim a kite this way - it will be waaaay too inaccurate just measuring line lengths :o

If you are a total newbee, you have got no other choices of course - but would recommend asking an experienced to check for you, as it wont take long.

The best way will always be to feel where the "max power point" is yourself - easy to do when out riding and using the trim adjuster simultaneously, till the "point" is found, just before it slows down too much.
Just remember to shorten the baglines a lot (or lengthen the frontlines), beforehand.

And now you can correct for the offset your trim adjuster has, by changing pigtails at the kite, or moving to other knots - so your trim adjuster can be utilized fully :naughty:

Whether the lines are exactly equal length or not now, does not matter....

I'll bet that you can take almost any full kite series from any brand, and you'll find that with EXACTLY equal lines, they wont be in the "max power point" in all sizes.
Some might be - others could be choked (too much rear line tension too little power), others could be too depowered :o

So adjusting every single size/kite individually is the only way to get it toally right IMO :thumb:

:D Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:53 pm 
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What exactly are you guys even talking about? Trimming is pretty easy, if you can't ride with your bar where you want it then trim one way or the other...


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
The best way will always be to feel where the "max power point" is yourself - easy to do when out riding and using the trim adjuster simultaneously, till the "point" is found, just before it slows down too much.


This is an excellent thread... I've never been really clear on this and thanks so much for explaining but can you possibly expand on the above point a little more?...

lemme go through a scenario:
I've made my front lines a bit longer like you said... I'm now out riding... hooked in.. both hands on bar, bar about 1/3 the way out in my favorite position lets say...trim all the way out at "full power"... what am I looking to do at this point? Am I going to pull on the trim until the kite stalls/slows... ok if I'm right so far and now I've found that point... I now know where the trim has to be to allow me to ride "full powered" with the bar at my favorite position... so now what do I do? I'm guessing I now have to either shorten or lengthen my front lines by the same amount of trim I just finished setting??? I'm guessing I should shorten them. If that's true and I shorten them by that amount does that mean I'm done?... kite is now 100% trimmed to where I like it??

I hope I haven't confused the issue further :)


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:25 pm 
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If you leave the bar all the way out you'll notice very little pull from both the kite and the bar. If you continue to pull in on the bar, the bar pressure will continue to go up, and simultaneously, the kite will pull harder.

At some point, you should notice instead of increasing the bar pressure will begin to decrease. If you keep pulling in, the bar pressure will decrease more and more and at some point the kite will quite flying forwards and now start flying backwards, with the trailing edge first and the leading edge behind. You might have to pull on the leaders to get it to do this. This is called backstalling the kite.

The point where the maximum pressure from the bar and the kite is where you typically will tune the kite for equal lines and the bar all the way in. You can adjust either the kite or the bar or both by changing which knot the lines are on or possibly adding pigtails.

I find it easiest to adjust all my kites so they are tuned for equal lines. That way if I have a brand new bar I don't have to tinker with it, I just put the bar at equal lines and that's it, the kite will fly properly. I have tuned all my kites so they accept equal lines and when I build a new bar, I always build it for equal lines. It makes swapping bars and kites very easy.

Some kites may not have maximum bar pressure at the same place as the maximum pull from the kite. With these kites you have to fly it and watch the kite feel it and made adjustments accordingly.

Does this seem complicated? Get someone to help you with it when you first tune your kite. They can show you how to feel for the kite to get it properly tuned.

Peter can explain how he tunes his kites, I think he likes to tune each of his bars and kites differently so that the feel for the maximum pressure is the same distance from his body. If you want the kite to fully backstall when you pull the bar all the way in, the simplest way is to move the steering lines to a knot closer to the bar, though you can lengthen the center lines too.


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:40 pm 
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frankm1960 wrote:
Peter_Frank wrote:
The best way will always be to feel where the "max power point" is yourself - easy to do when out riding and using the trim adjuster simultaneously, till the "point" is found, just before it slows down too much.


This is an excellent thread... I've never been really clear on this and thanks so much for explaining but can you possibly expand on the above point a little more?...

lemme go through a scenario:
I've made my front lines a bit longer like you said... I'm now out riding... hooked in.. both hands on bar, bar about 1/3 the way out in my favorite position lets say...trim all the way out at "full power"... what am I looking to do at this point? Am I going to pull on the trim until the kite stalls/slows... ok if I'm right so far and now I've found that point... I now know where the trim has to be to allow me to ride "full powered" with the bar at my favorite position... so now what do I do? I'm guessing I now have to either shorten or lengthen my front lines by the same amount of trim I just finished setting??? I'm guessing I should shorten them. If that's true and I shorten them by that amount does that mean I'm done?... kite is now 100% trimmed to where I like it??

I hope I haven't confused the issue further :)


You are absolutely right about everything Frank :thumb:

You loosen the trim, holding your bar at the "best" position for you when full power.
And when you find the point where the kite begins to slow down and fly slower (or even stall if overdone), meaning it delivers less power, then you tighten just a bit again, and now you know where the trim has to be with this kite, for you, for full power.

You might have to ride back and fourth a bit, to be sure where you find it has the most power.

Then you simply shorten the frontlines by the amount you've pulled the depower (or lengthen the rear lines or move on knots), so you can ride with the trim out at "max" when you want max power, and have the full trim length for depower, so you use the full range of your trim 8)

It might be simple for many, but for others it is not that simple - so important to know !

:D PF


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 Post subject: Re: Trimming the kite...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:18 pm 
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I trim my kite in the way, that when I pull the bar down all the way, I have maximum power.
So when I lock into my microloop, I have full power.
With oversheeting (backlines too short) the kite will loose power and backstall.
Plus with the most power all the way down, you have more depower.


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