Please help with with access issues in New York

RichardM · **Posted:** Mon May 25, 2009 7:31 pm

raueda1 wrote:

RichardM wrote:

However, it is distinctly possible that the Park has overstepped its authority by arbitrarily banning kiting. Whether this argument is valid, and to what degree, will depend on interpretation of the Rules and Regs. Before being able to argue about any particular interpretation, it would be beneficial to find out the Park's interpretation and the legal basis for its interpretation. This is why I wrote to the Chief Counsel. It is his job to provide these interpretations etc.

Richard, you don't seem to get it. Over the years many of us, myself included, have been down this road with the NYS Park people. They did NOT arbitrarily ban kiting. They didn't have to. Because it not an allowed use (or however they phrase it in their bureaucrat-ese), kiting was defacto banned from the start. This is not about reversing a ban, it's about getting the bureaucrats to allow a new use. This is exactly the issue that Surfriders faced at Montalk. Surfing wasn't banned, it just wasn't allowed. The only thing that was allowed was fishing. The SurfRider struggle was to fight the fishing lobby to get surfing allowed. This sounds wierdly backwards, and it is, but that's how they have the system set up. Hence there is no overstepped authority or interpretation.

Sorry, Raueda, but apparently, you don't seem to get it.

The Rules and Regs apply to THE PARK SERVICE every bit as much (or more) as they apply to the public.

The rules which MIGHT apply to kiting are specifically in the "Regulated Activities" section (377.1), NOT the "Prohibited Activities" section.

A liberal interpretation indicates that kiting SHOULD be allowed SOMEPLACE at SOMETIME in the park.

By LAW, the park service MUST make any and all rules which they enforce conform to the Rules and Regs under which they have authority to operate. Whether or not they have done so will effectively depend on interpretation of various terms used in section 377.1. In the (unlikely but possible) event that the Chief Counsel's interpretation ALLOWS regulated kiting, then the Park Service is LEGALLY REQUIRED to permit it.

Just because it may be legally required to permit kiting, DOESN'T mean that you HAVE to USE this argument. If you believe a kiss ass approach will be more productive (it might be), go for it.

However, it might be nice to have a legal opinion stating that the Park MUST allow regulated kiting in the likely event that you are turned down by Director Gorman.

I outlined the MANY potentially serious (possibly fatal) problems associated with the approach advocated by krazedkiter in my previous post. I find it telling that his only counter arguments had to do with the movie and the possibly justified fear that the Park Service will become more antagonistic if shown to be doing something wrong.

And BTW krazed, although it doesn't really have any bearing here, Dalton sure didn't "ended up with the hot girl, a great new home with family and friends, and he got rid of the bad guy." by kissing ass. He did it by kicking butt. Also, while he was wasting time being "nice", his 2 friends got killed by the bad guy.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

Krazedkiter · **Joined:** Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:03 am **Posts:** 287

Who exactly are you fighting Richard. Us or them? You also lost me on the IKO thread.

This is your beach, your access, and you are the local Richard and we (I) am just posting suggestions and dont really appreciate getting bashed over putting my time to help. Continue on and I hope you gain your access back.

Good luck NY kiters

RichardM · **Posted:** Mon May 25, 2009 8:31 pm

Krazedkiter wrote:

Who exactly are you fighting Richard. Us or them? You also lost me on the IKO thread.

This is your beach, your access, and you are the local Richard and we (I) am just posting suggestions and dont really appreciate getting bashed over putting my time to help. Continue on and I hope you gain your access back.

Good luck NY kiters

Sorry krazed. Disagreeing is NOT bashing. And I'm not really a local.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

Krazedkiter · **Joined:** Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:03 am **Posts:** 287

Good luck with your access :wink:

Laughingman · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2009 4:24 am

RichardM

I like what you are saying, and I understand your point of view. We should have as much right to beach access as anyone else doing any other activity. Sometimes it requires regulation so different activities don't clash. Regulation is a far cry from all out banning. If we try to appease the powers that be, we will always be giving up something, I would much rather fight for the rights that I am entitled to, then roll over and kiss some rent a cops ass.

We all have rights, just because we fly a kite doesn't mean we are not citizens of what ever nation we reside in. Fight to keep them, or loose them. Its your choice!

Sincerely

Pete

RichardM · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2009 7:28 pm

Laughingman wrote:

RichardM

I like what you are saying, and I understand your point of view. We should have as much right to beach access as anyone else doing any other activity. Sometimes it requires regulation so different activities don't clash. Regulation is a far cry from all out banning. If we try to appease the powers that be, we will always be giving up something, I would much rather fight for the rights that I am entitled to, then roll over and kiss some rent a cops ass.

We all have rights, just because we fly a kite doesn't mean we are not citizens of what ever nation we reside in. Fight to keep them, or loose them. Its your choice!

Sincerely

Pete

Pete:

I'm sorry to constantly be contradictory but I would like to clarify that unfortunately I do NOT believe that "We should have as much right to beach access as anyone else doing any other activity." in crowded urban areas.

The fact is that kiters should be the absolute bottom of the food chain regarding entitlement to public recreational areas such as the ocean. I prefer not to go into the reasons for this.

However, this doesn't mean that kiters necessarily should be banned or excessively regulated. If it is reasonably possible for kiters to co-exist with other beach users, then they have a right to do so even if it means somewhat more work for the authorities. I believe that Jones beach is large enough to reasonably accommodate kiters without significantly negatively impacting other beach users.

Furthermore, the Rules and Regs specifically take into consideration that different activities may conflict and it states that its purpose is to provide recreational facilities for these conflicting activities wherever possible. Since the rules which may deal with kiters are listed under the "Regulated Activities" section (377.1), a good argument can be made that kiting should be allowed AT LEAST someplace at sometimes.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

nj kiter · **Joined:** Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:20 pm **Posts:** 169

signed last week good luck

Laughingman · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2009 10:05 pm

RichardM wrote:

Pete:

I'm sorry to constantly be contradictory but I would like to clarify that unfortunately I do NOT believe that "We should have as much right to beach access as anyone else doing any other activity." in crowded urban areas.

The fact is that kiters should be the absolute bottom of the food chain regarding entitlement to public recreational areas such as the ocean. I prefer not to go into the reasons for this.

However, this doesn't mean that kiters necessarily should be banned or excessively regulated. If it is reasonably possible for kiters to co-exist with other beach users, then they have a right to do so even if it means somewhat more work for the authorities. I believe that Jones beach is large enough to reasonably accommodate kiters without significantly negatively impacting other beach users.

Furthermore, the Rules and Regs specifically take into consideration that different activities may conflict and it states that its purpose is to provide recreational facilities for these conflicting activities wherever possible. Since the rules which may deal with kiters are listed under the "Regulated Activities" section (377.1), a good argument can be made that kiting should be allowed AT LEAST someplace at sometimes.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

No worries Richard I don't see contradictory as argumentative or negative. My early post is probably not a very popular one, it is only an opinion.

Sincerely

Pete

mathieu leheilleix · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2009 12:27 pm

Signed

Not sure on which grounds local authorities can restrict ocean-access to kiters.

Good luck !

Please help with with access issues in New York

Who is online