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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:10 pm 
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Toby wrote:
The picture above is amazing...is that a normal day in Hel or during an event?


What event :-? :?: :!: During an event you can't see a horizon line :!: :lol:

Welcome in Hel(l) - according to my best knowledge that is an ordinary day on July or August weekend with winds blowing 8-15kts.
That's way we were desperated to clarify rights of way :D

I avoid Hel(l) in summertime according to Rule 5 Multiperson meetings :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
The purpose of rules is to establish a common standard of behavior that works in most situations, not all situations. The proposed rules do exactly that. The goal in establishing rules is to have them followed, and to meet that goal they must be trimmed down enough for the average idiot to follow.

Rules based on "Get out of my F&&##CKIUNG way because I'm busting a trick" do not work because the rule implies that everyone is correct in doing whatever the F&&#CK it is they want to do as long as they are more skilled than the next guy. This is the same mindset that drives scenarios in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer through exploitation....take as much as you can because you can....

Having participated in local processes involving government to preserve access to a launch area, and seeing the design of a "Launch Area Use" sign for public posting, I understand how hard it is to get something like this done. You have done an excellent job. Everyone likes to criticize and "provide input" to change something... but there has to be something there to change in the first place. Right now there is nothing equivalent to this. This is superb work establishing a simple common baseline of rules that will help across the world.

"Get out my F&&##CHING way because I have a Ferrarri and I know how to drive it, you as&&Hole. I wanna drift." doesn't work on the highways, and it's equivalent will not work on the waterways.

I agree that it is a royal pain to have to deal with overpopulation and crowded conditions. But... we do. There will always be the "Nice rules, but they don't apply to me." mentalities. That's why there are cops giving tickets. Is that the next step? Inability to work cooperatively generates the need for enforcement, Satan. Is that what you want? Even more restrictions? I am from the "anti-establishment generation" and am an "independent" thinker, but I understand enough about society to know that rules/traditions/stated etiquette are necessary to make society work. Otherwise you deteriorate to the "I have a bigger gun, so I win" social structure.

Not sure about the entire book. The poster gets the point across in a quick-read sort of way. Keeps in simple enough for everyone to understand without too much effort. Can the poster be acquired all by itself?


Last edited by Windrider on Sun May 31, 2009 6:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:35 pm 
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Toby wrote:
partly right, Satan.

If there is a specific perfect flat water jump area, way should be give to the one who loads up for jumping there, I agree.

But in normal riding areas, where you just ride to go upwind, starboard makes sense to make sure it does not become a mess.

And please, show a bit more respect towards other people who put a lot of work into this when choosing your words.

I would also like to discuss this picture:

Image

Looking at the wind, I would assume the kiter in the wave will ride the wave and ride further downwind, so it does not make sense that the red kiter goes downwind of the wave kiter!
Just make the red kiter jibe away from the wave kiter at all, but the downwind should be given to the wave kiter.

Otherwise, great work! :thumb:

I think the picture is simply stating that the person approaching another person on a wave should "give way".... not that they should go down wind... simply that they should do the work to avoid the person on the wave.

Perhaps a similar picture with a person in the air after a jump instead of on a wave would be a good idea? The trouble with the notion that a person in the air has "right of way" gives butt-heads the opportunity to try to create a right-of way simply by jumping. "I was in the air so I had right-of-way!!" Obviously, that won't work because the friggin' "Take as much as I can get" mindset people will try to capitalize on it and take advantage of it... because they can.


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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:01 pm 
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BraCuru wrote:
kitezilla wrote:
"Beep" = "Get out of my way"
"Beep, Beep" = "Get the F@#K out of my way"
"Beep, Beep,Beep" = "God D@#M it, get the F@#k out of my way...I am going to 'bust a move'!"


Excellent :lol: :lol: :lol: and simple: just three beeping rules :D

Perhaps we could just document the "Growl real loud and pound your chest!!" form of intimidation to get the other person to back down.... (that's basically what a horn is....). Works in the animal kingdom. There's also the adolescent human form of intimidation called "Play chicken" approach. That's a really simple rule, too, that seems most commonly followed at the present. Even monkeys can grasp that one. Great organizational structure that creates....


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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Toby wrote:
partly right, Satan.

If there is a specific perfect flat water jump area, way should be give to the one who loads up for jumping there, I agree.

But in normal riding areas, where you just ride to go upwind, starboard makes sense to make sure it does not become a mess.

And please, show a bit more respect towards other people who put a lot of work into this when choosing your words.

I would also like to discuss this picture:

Image

Looking at the wind, I would assume the kiter in the wave will ride the wave and ride further downwind, so it does not make sense that the red kiter goes downwind of the wave kiter!
Just make the red kiter jibe away from the wave kiter at all, but the downwind should be given to the wave kiter.

My second vote , :thumb:

Otherwise, great work! :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Location: i m lost cause kiting adrenaline steal my soul with heart
i try talk about # 10 picture seem to be wrong
if world cargo big ship , so which way kiter go ?
it suppose to let big ship go first than pass left of big ship as dangerous ?


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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:15 pm 
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Perhaps it would be a good idea to introduce a "Beginner etiqutte" rule equivalent to the driving rule of "stay in the slow lane if going less than the speed limit"? How could it be worded? It would be easier if there was a designated "trick zone" that beginners should stay out of, or a "beginner zone" that they should stay in... but that's introducing more complexity and regulation to the situation.

Perhaps, simply a "Beginner's Reminder Rule" stating that "Beginners should keep in mind that they are still learning to control the kite and avoid creating dangerous situations at all cost. Stay out of congested areas."


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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Galeltic wrote:
i try talk about # 10 picture seem to be wrong
if world cargo big ship , so which way kiter go ?
it suppose to let big ship go first than pass left of big ship as dangerous ?


It is impossible to present all possible cases on 10 drawings.
How to draw a ship, a diver, a yacht, a surfer, a bodyboarder, a stand-up surfer, a fishing boat, a dredger, a navy vessel etc on one small drawing? I do not know...

Please read it in rather symbolic and not realistic way like Windrider suggested.

In case you mentioned everybody uses common sense and turns back on opposite tack or passes in a safe distance from the upwind side.

Passing on ship's leeside would be not clever.
Nobody wants to end up in a situation like this:
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Windrider wrote:
Perhaps, simply a "Beginner's Reminder Rule" stating that "Beginners should keep in mind that they are still learning to control the kite and avoid creating dangerous situations at all cost. Stay out of congested areas."


We were thinking about it but gave up because I did not want to write impractical things

Unfortunately such good rule will never work in reality from two reasons:

a) how to define a beginner? When a newbee becomes an intermediate?
b) how you notice that a lot of beginners never treat themselves as beginners? When I hear or read discussions between such beginners I have impression that I am surrounded by pros :angryfire:

Our next project is to produce a second side of the board with a poster showing kitesurfing etiquette which contains chapter for beginners. This is going to be the place where we present your rule in words & drawings.
The poster will additionally display safety info for a public watching kitesurfers.


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 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:43 pm 
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REGARDING THE RIGHT OF WAY (ROW) IN SURF:

I expect to get incinerated by wave riders for this post but since controversy creates readership, at least Toby should appreciate it.

Based upon the "less maneuverable = ROW" basic rule, wave riders should NOT have the right of way (ROW) over people going out.

First it should be noted that the "less maneuverable = ROW" basic rule is based more upon safety considerations rather than courtesy or convenience and safety oriented rules should always have preference over any others.

Someone going out is assumed to be "less maneuverable" because:

1. He may not be able to turn around because of the proximity of the shore or shallow water.

2. At many locations, debris such as seaweed etc. accumulates near the shore and is comparatively hazardous.

3. At many locations, the wind near the shore is less reliable and more problematic compared to further out.

4. There may be other kiters nearby on shore with their kites in the air and these represent potential hazards.

5. There may be members of the public nearby on shore and these represent potential hazards.

6. There may be swimmers, surfers and/or bathers in the water and these will tend to be closer to shore and also represent potential hazards.

7. In general, the closer you are to shore, the less safe you are.

8. Going out through white water and waves is more difficult than riding while out past the surf line.

9. If the person has just launched (as opposed to someone who has kited in and then turned around), his feet may not be well set in his footstraps thereby impairing his balance and necessitating extra effort.

10. If the person has just launched, he may have misjudged conditions (wind, currents etc) and therefore have some unexpected problems. At the very least, he probably doesn't have as good a grasp of conditions as someone who has been out for a while.

Admittedly, it is possible to be locked into a wave and then be relatively less maneuverable.

However, I think most waveriders will admit (if only to themselves) that instances where they truly CANNOT exit a wave reasonably safely are rarely very long.

By giving waveriders the excuse to have the ROW because they're "locked into" a wave, they'll ALWAYS be "locked in".

However, the bottom line is that if their being on the wave is going to interfere with someone going out, THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN IT in the first place!

If they're paying attention, someone coming in has a reasonably good view from far away of kiters entering the water and/or going out. They have ample opportunity to turn around and wait until outgoing kiters won't be in their way.

[Is that gnashing teeth I hear?]

The below is an edited post from Peter Frank at
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2353900&start=20
which succinctly states what would take me an hour to put down.

The rider going out has ROW (Right Of Way - as in the rules used the last 25 years) no doubt at all.
The rider on the wave usually has much more ability to give way - and regarding getting teabagged if escaping the wave to give way to a poor soul trapped on his/her way out, it should only be a problem if unhooked - and again - those unhooked would have sufficient level to hook in fast, thus have way more options.

[Port, starboard comments omitted]

If catching the wave simultaniously, the rider nearest the breaking part has ROW.
If no clear peak (most often the issue here...), then the upwind rider has ROW (bear in mind, this is unlike normal sailing rules).

Then there is the most important "gentleman rule", which is used in most situations:
One going out should always avoid and give room to the surfer on the wave, whenever possible, and generally try to stay clear of the best waveride zone :D
So here Kevin is right, except for the fact that it can never be a rule, only what is preferred and polite.

And again - although the word "rules" is used, it is "guidelines" in order to avoid collisions and to give the best possibilities for the rider on the wave - meaning you are an idiot if you hold on your "right" even though you can see someone else can not bear away or has no knowledge of the guidelines.

Jumping on the wave when going out should generally be avoided totally if there are many riders out, as you can not see a windsurfer or surfrider in the water behind the wave.

Surfers has ROW over both kite and windsurfers of course.

[omitted comments]
But local "different" rules are used in many line-up spots over the world, I know.
So always ask if you travel to another country/spot .

#1: USE COMMON SENSE !

1. A rider coming in should give way to a rider going out.
2. A rider going out should, whenever possible, give room to a rider on a wave.
3. The rider catching the wave first has the wave.
4. If catching simultaniously, the rider nearest the breaking part, or the rider upwind if no clear breaking part, has the wave.

[omitted comments]

Kindly, Peter Frank"

REGARDING USING "PORT / STARBOARD" TERMINOLOGY:

I think the entire application of "port" and "starboard" terminology as applied to kitesurfing right of way rules is needlessly confusing and almost completely unnecessary.

99% of kitesurfing right of way rules which use the terms "port" and "starboard" could be simplified and often made more logical by instead using "going out" (from shore) or "coming in" (towards shore). Maybe shortened to "outgoing" and "incoming".

About the only situation I can think of where "outgoing/incoming" wouldn't work is where 2 kitesurfers were on a collision course and traveling parallel to the beach. At all the locations I know of, this is very unusual.

I believe that "port" and "starboard" terminology as applied to right of way rules originated with boats and of course had to deal with situations where there was no shore and where travel parallel to shore was common.

For example, what happens if:

1. The guy "coming in" is on a starboard (right hand forward) tack when a rider who just launched is going out?

2. In the above example, isn't it likely that "the rider who just launched" is also less maneuverable? After all, he may not be able to turn around due to the shore, his feet may not be well situated in his footstraps, he may not be able to turn around ,he may have surf and whitewater to deal with etc.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell who is on a starboard tack. For example:

3. If someone is going TOESIDE on a twintip, couldn't they have their right hand/arm forward while a heelside rider (coming towards Mr. Toeside) would also have his right hand/arm forward?

In this case, it isn't easily apparent who has the right of way. On the other hand, if the rule was that the person heading out had the right of way, everything would ALWAYS be INSTANTLY apparent from a long way off and there is much less opportunity for confusion or debate.

Additionally, people unfamiliar with, or unsure of, the meaning of "starboard tack" etc. would not be confused.

Regarding right of way rules, simpler and easier should be better.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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