*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:59 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:33 pm
Posts: 836
Location: Florence Oregon
BraCuru wrote:
Quote:
windsurfers and surfers ALWAYS give way to the guy on the wave


Negative.

Windsurfer wave riding gives way to the outgoing one!

PWA wave rule 3.9.1. (a): In surf, a competitor who is coming in shall keep clear of a competitor who is going out.

My book:

Additional commentary requires a meeting on the wave with a windsurfer, who in similarity to us is driven by wind strength and for this reason cannot be grouped with other water users driven by muscles power alone. The windsurfing wave rule is opposite to the kitesurfing one: a windsurfer going out has right of the way over a windsurfer on the wave approaching to the shore. There is a logical explanation. The windsurfer, in contrary to the kitesurfer, cannot jump up from a flat water to fly over the breaking wave. For him it is much more difficult to break through the impact zone than come back on or between the waves. Therefore the Code states that a kitesurfer gives way to a windsurfer sailing out in the impact zone. The windsurfer sailing towards the beach has the same rights as a kitesurfer.


If the windsurfer does not have the skills to get out he shouldn't be going out.

edited to include,,

at beach breaks consideraton is given to outgoing
but at true surf breaks the wave rider is the least manuverable
because of the wave riding thingy that Surfrider mentions
but I guarnetee if you try to hog up the break by stiffing someone already on the wave
you'll make a bunch of enemies


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:41 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 478
robertovillate wrote:
It would be great to hear from a maritime law expert who is also a kiteboarder that could give an "in a nutshell" viewpoint of this subject.


I am not a maritime law expert and I am not sure if you can find such guy kiting. There are just a couple of people in each maritime country who may say they are the experts. Most of them are well over 40/50 and work in maritime academies as lectures and advisers in maritime courts.
I am just guessing that there are less than 100 academies around the globe. The chances are very small.

I would describe myself as a practical maritime law expert. I have been a captain of ro-ro ferry crossing the English Channel twice a day since 2002. I am a pilot exemption certificate holder for the River Thames, Humber and the Belgium harbour – Zeebrugge.
I navigate on the River Thames 10 times a week on the ferry 170m long belonging to P&O Ferries. My experience helped me to I became a member of Port of London Navigational Advisory Panel.
Additionally I spent last two decades windsurfing and last 5 years kitesurfing.

I can ensure you that the values presented in my book have been consulted with the best experts of Colregs in Poland (Maritime Academy in Szczecin and Gdynia). It took almost one year to write it. A big part of this time was consumed on the consultations.

Comparing the kiteregs with colregs there are three exceptions concerning overtaking, multiperson meetings and meetings with other water users not being kite/windsurfers.
Please find the explanation of these eceptions:

These Rules are based on The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (ColRegs), state rules, sailing and windsurfing regulations. Had not kitesurfing been different from the sailing, it would be the simplest way just to adopt the sailing regulations. Such a situation happened when windsurfing appeared on the water scene. However, a kitesurfer differs from a yacht, a motor boat or even a windsurfer – at first glance we see a completely new design of propulsion. The kitesurfer sails on a small, light weight board weighing only 3 kg and the source of the propulsion is a kite flying 30 meters away with its square surface of up to 20 m2. When the kite flies above water it occupies exactly the same width as a container vessel of length of 250 meters! At the same time, the manoeuvrability of advanced rider is comparable with a jet-ski. On top of that some of us are able, like a hydroplane, to jump into air on 10-15 meter levels and finally land 100 meters below. We are able to become airborne for 10 seconds or more. Imagine that a container vessel, with manoeuvrability and speed of a jet-ski and ability to take off, is given into the hands of youngster who has just finished a few hours of a kitesurfing course. It is the highest concern of all of us that even such an inexperienced person will ride safely, obeying clearly explained and standardized rules.
The creation of three exceptions to the yachting rules is caused by the otherness of kitesurfing to other water sports and risk minimizing. The author hopes that they will be accepted by all water users. The first exception refers to the possibility of reducing speed by the stand-on rider while overtaking. The second exception concerns meetings of more than two riders, during which there is no stand-on rider. The third difference is in the introduction of the precise length of power-driven crafts, whom we give the way to. Detailed explanations were given in the comments to the relevant rules.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:59 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1497
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
BraCuru wrote:
robertovillate wrote:
It would be great to hear from a maritime law expert who is also a kiteboarder that could give an "in a nutshell" viewpoint of this subject.


I am not a maritime law expert and I am not sure if you can find such guy kiting.................................................... Detailed explanations were given in the comments to the relevant rules. [/i]


Bra Curu,
Perhaps I should have better phrased the question - since this thread has taken a focus on rules in the waves. I read your last reply over and over and, unless I am completely missing something, I could not find any correlation.

I think it's commonly accepted that kitesurfers have a "differentness", as you put it, to other vessels. In some sense you could compare this "differentness" to other types of sail or power boats (e.g. a skiff flying a spinnaker 15 feet or more beyond the bow on a sprit that is longer than the actual boat vs a gaff rigged ketch with no forward extensions, whether fixed or retractable) The point being that each operates at different speeds, whether constant or not, and depending on conditions and ability, needs different space and time to maneuver in a seamanlike manner. Therefore the kite and lines are considered an extension of the gear to operate normally.

I tell students that "giving room" to a stand on kiter really means the stand on kiter should be able to fly their kite in the full 180 degree arc of the wind window, because in fact they may need to do so on a wave to stay powered, or turn away, and not get creamed. The same case is true on flat water - it's "courteous" to raise or lower a kite when passing, but sometimes the operator cannot control the kite enough, or need to fly it low for a power stroke. The bottom line is "try to ride so you and your kite are at least one line length from the other kiter and his gear". Of course, in practicality, people ride much closer to each other than that all the time, but most do the next best thing - control the kites to avoid a collison.

But getting pack to the point of wave rules, (with all due respect for your experience and qualifications) I still do not see any valid argument in the wave rules you imply in your lengthy treatises.

When on a wave it is possible to be severely limited in the direction you can ride or turn. In laymens terms "it just isn't cool to cut a guy off on a wave". The guy going out trying to negotiate shorebreak also has limited maneuverability, but he is "entering" into someone else's path (the guy on the wave) and should yield. And I am sure there are many times where a guy on a wave will say - "uh-oh, that guy coming out is having trouble, so I'll exit the wave or ride out of the way as much as possible". And as another poster mentioned...if either cannot ride safely in those types of conditions they should not be out there to begin with.

There have been a few very short and simple explanations offered already which make sense. The simpler the rule is the better it is, since things can happen fast and people need to act accordingly.

Bra Curu,
If possible, rather than quoting extensively from your book again and listing all sorts of sections and sub-sections, etc...can you give a simple (200 words or less) explanation of the logic of your position? Since we are discussing kitesurfers, saiboards, and surfers in "surf conditions" you can limit it to that.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:43 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:28 pm
Posts: 1683
Location: i m lost cause kiting adrenaline steal my soul with heart
Bra Curu

your rules belong to polisk as not us at ocean ! bye !
u lives near lake :nono:


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:14 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 478
robertovillate wrote:
can you give a simple (200 words or less) explanation of the logic of your position? Since we are discussing kitesurfers, saiboards, and surfers in "surf conditions" you can limit it to that.


Taken from windsurfing, a different rule applies if you are riding waves.

The rider in the wave should always be given the right of way.

You should not interfere any wave riding session of any board sports, like windsurfing, surfing, wave kiter.

Look out for someone dropping into a wave and then either let the rider pass or ride to the direction.

The one who drops in first into a wave, has the right of way as well.

Quote:
your rules belong to polisk as not us at ocean ! bye !
u lives near lake


If you live in Italy does it mean that you drive FIAT? Not too clever :idea:


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:43 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:56 am
Posts: 3751
Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
Galeltic wrote:
Bra Curu

your rules belong to polisk as not us at ocean ! bye !
u lives near lake :nono:

Yo! Galeltic! Read his qualifications stated above. He's a certified skipper (pilot) for heaven's sakes. He is about as much of a certified seaman as you could ask for. Just 'cause he shows a picture of a lake, doesn't mean that's where he kites all the time. He's done his homework big time.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:32 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:28 pm
Posts: 1683
Location: i m lost cause kiting adrenaline steal my soul with heart
Windrider wrote:
Galeltic wrote:
Bra Curu

your rules belong to polisk as not us at ocean ! bye !
u lives near lake :nono:

Yo! Galeltic! Read his qualifications stated above. He's a certified skipper (pilot) for heaven's sakes. He is about as much of a certified seaman as you could ask for. Just 'cause he shows a picture of a lake, doesn't mean that's where he kites all the time. He's done his homework big time.





good point but

robertovillate wrote:
It would be great to hear from a maritime law expert who is also a kiteboarder that could give an "in a nutshell" viewpoint of this subject.


I am not a maritime law expert and I am not sure if you can find such guy kiting. There are just a couple of people in each maritime country who may say they are the experts. Most of them are well over 40/50 and work in maritime academies as lectures and advisers in maritime courts.
I am just guessing that there are less than 100 academies around the globe. The chances are very small.

not enuff with 100 people so it need more than 500
then we would see what bit different situation from their votes than 100
i wonder was 100 kiters or 20 kiters and 40 windsurfer and 40 sailors or what ?


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:10 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 478
Galeltic wrote:
not enuff with 100 people so it need more than 500
then we would see what bit different situation from their votes than 100
i wonder was 100 kiters or 20 kiters and 40 windsurfer and 40 sailors or what ?


Let's say there 1000 of a maritime law experts who knows Colregs like the Bible.

What are the chances to find the one who is kitesurfer? Find him.Try, prove, do something positive. Maybe you will have positive input for kitesurfing even on a local scale.
It's easy to sit in front of a computer and press :nono: :nono: :nono:

I was searching almost one year and could not find. Instead I was in contact with maritime academies (not schools), maritime organisations, maritime governing bodies. For sure I had really constructive conversations being invited to the academies. My practical knowledge was confirmed and I had huge privilege to learn a lot from them.

By the way,
If you would see me on the picture taken on Punta Preta or Maui waves then what - would I be your guru...?
...a bit childish... :idea:


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:45 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1497
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
BraCuru,
(correction)
I regret that I was confused by all the quoting and inserting by others into quotes, etc...I think I am on the same page with you about wave rules - sorry for the misunderstanding on that. I do believe however that the wave rules Richard M has introduced are invalid.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:23 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:28 pm
Posts: 1683
Location: i m lost cause kiting adrenaline steal my soul with heart
BraCuru wrote:
Galeltic wrote:
not enuff with 100 people so it need more than 500
then we would see what bit different situation from their votes than 100
i wonder was 100 kiters or 20 kiters and 40 windsurfer and 40 sailors or what ?


Let's say there 1000 of a maritime law experts who knows Colregs like the Bible.

What are the chances to find the one who is kitesurfer? Find him.Try, prove, do something positive. Maybe you will have positive input for kitesurfing even on a local scale.
It's easy to sit in front of a computer and press :nono: :nono: :nono:

I was searching almost one year and could not find. Instead I was in contact with maritime academies (not schools), maritime organisations, maritime governing bodies. For sure I had really constructive conversations being invited to the academies. My practical knowledge was confirmed and I had huge privilege to learn a lot from them.

By the way,

If you would see me on the picture taken on Punta Preta or Maui waves then what - would I be your guru...?
...a bit childish... :idea:



why u say 1000 but at first place u said 40/50
anyway how many kiters around world ?
i m not your guru !


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Do-it, Peter_Frank, tahoedirk and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group