*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:20 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:56 am
Posts: 3751
Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
SBBeachbum wrote:
Windrider wrote:
Wave riders should have ROW because waves are the reason the people are riding there.... If you want to go out, go out away from where the waves riders are riding. You can't ride waves where there aren't any, but you can still go out there, so go out where there aren't any waves (or where there are the least desirable waves).


That's a bad argument. I like to drive fast but still have to stop at a stop sign or red light. Going out makes you often more vulnerable in many spots so the ROW should be yours. I doubt that this will be a big issue as these wave regs will differ locally and will be handled locally. You will also not find an oiltanker or or other vessel in the line-up so not coming up with a sailing conform rule should not be a problem at all.

Its a very good argument. More along the lines of, people going downhill in a ski slope have ROW over people wishing to walk up to the top of the hill to go down again. People going up the hill use a path that it not on the main downhill run. It's a matter of giving priority to the primary users of a unique location (the break zone). Go out somewhere other than where the primo waves are breaking. Don't skate board on the roadway. Don't expect to drive on the wrong side of the road against oncoming traffic, etc..


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:47 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:33 pm
Posts: 836
Location: Florence Oregon
BraCuru wrote:
I would like to present my point of view on important issues written above.
It is going to be a rather long post - forgive me...

About wave. RichardM.

You mentioned about "many wave locations" where outgoing rider should have ROW.
I have been wave riding on four continents. The best wave ever for myself was ripping the very same wave on Punta Preta during the classic Cape Verde day, having my son 30 meters ahead and the Champion Mitu 30 meters behind me. Sweet memories.
Anyway my observations are different then yours. Actually local customs on majority of kite wave spots say that wave rider has ROW.
I just collected and presented binding kitesurfing customs.
I am aware that the wave kiting rules are opposite to windsurfing and surfing rules.

Please see a comment from my book:
Additional commentary requires a meeting on the wave with a windsurfer, who in similarity to us is driven by wind strength and for this reason cannot be grouped with other water users driven by muscles power alone. The windsurfing wave rule is opposite to the kitesurfing one: a windsurfer going out has right of the way over a windsurfer on the wave approaching to the shore. There is a logical explanation. The windsurfer, in contrary to the kitesurfer, cannot jump up from flat water to fly over the breaking wave. For him it is much more difficult to break through the impact zone than come back on or between the waves. Therefore the Code states that a kitesurfer gives way to a windsurfer sailing out in the impact zone. The windsurfer sailing towards the beach has the same rights as a kitesurfer.
Let’s summarize the Wave Rule. Before snapping the waves and making bottom turns double check if it does not disturb a windsurfer breaking through the impact zone and to any other wave surfers driven by their own hands.


For sure there are some specific spots where an outgoing rider should have ROW due to many factors mentioned by you.
I assume that you probably ride at such location.
How to sort it out? The solution is simple.
In such special places it should be a board with info that the rule of shore zone overrides the wave rule.

My point is that once everybody understands and follows proposed kiteregs then we talk the same language.
To be honest the present situation looks like a chaos management.
The sport is growing rapidly and the real picture of obeying ROW rules gets more catastrophic every year.
We do not see any improvement despite of good will by IKO and national associations.
I thought that all kiteforum.com users follow the rules presented on this forum:

Taken from windsurfing, a different rule applies if you are riding waves.
The rider in the wave should always be given the right of way.
You should not interfere any wave riding session of any board sports, like windsurfing, surfing, wave kiter. They are concentrating on the wave and nothing else around, knowing they have the right of way in the wave.
Look out for someone dropping into a wave and then either let the rider pass or ride to the direction.
The one who drops in first into a wave, has the right of way as well.


The idea to standardise the rules and posting the info boards like I proposed could be a mile step in safety improvement.
I do not say it will sort the problem for good - I am realistic.
But it will help to understand the basics by newbees who have never been involved in any water sport.

I have very positive feedback from Polish beaches where my poster was displayed.
People look on the poster, ask questions, discuss it and then go on the water. Anyone who does not follow the rules from the poster is simply banned by a local society.
It proves me that the idea is worth for further promotion and I hope it will be world-wide one.

May I ask all of you?
Would you like to see such poster on your local beach and on any popular kitespots where you go for kite holiday?

The poster would be in a local language version on one side of the board and English on the opposite side. A network of national associations or clubs would post the standard info boards. The Polish experiment proves that the majority of us supports this idea despite it has commenced three weeks ago.

Outgoing / incoming rider issue.
Sounds good and would work very well in shore zone in most of the cases.
Unfortunately it would be pointless during onshore winds, competitions, wave riding on the reef and would work against water sport habits, customs and rules.
My proposal contains a part of this idea which is presented in:

Rule 3 – Coastal zone
3.2. A rider approaching a coastal zone gives way to those who are in the zone with their airborne kites and as they enter or leave the water.


And comments:

It should be more clear and widespread that, in the coastal zone, priority is given to the rider who enters the water, who stays on the beach or in the shore zone, and his kite is airborne. He may stand on the beach, in the water or just be leaving water after the session. The beach and the shore zone are places with the highest number of kitesurfing accidents occur (up to 90%). Moreover, accidents on the beach are usually much more dangerous than on water. Additionally, completely random people may become victims. It will not help us if the media describe kitesurfing as a sport for irresponsible and dangerous people. Unexplained behaviour is when a rider gybes or performs a trick a few meters from the shore, delaying other riders who are about to enter the water. It is logical to turn earlier then come back two minutes later and perform the trick on an empty beach. If he fails the trick and his kite falls in water, then nobody is hurt and the kite laying on water won’t delay any other riders.
An exception to the case described above is the situation when there are wave surfing conditions off the beach. Then all riders give way to the one who rides the waves first. In practice, it means that nobody launches his kite in the best place for waves. For this reason the launching and landing zone is usually located nearby where no one rides waves in the shore zone.
The reason for the second exception may appear with rapidly changing wind conditions. Suppose that a "fat", black cloud is approaching rapidly. Logic says to land a kite immediately and wait until situation is cleared. Therefore in such a moment, in accordance with GKP, the rider who is preparing to enter the water, should land his kite and assist during landing other riders’ kites. Imagine the opposite situation: wind rapidly calms down. We are ready to enter the water with the bigger kite. At the same time, we notice a rider straggling to reach the beach. Good practice will be to depart from the Shore Zone Rules and to give way to the rider approaching the shore. We may lose a few precious seconds on the water but for sure we will gain respect of others at the same time.


About the rule concerning meeting with other water users.
Again, I thought that people follow the rules taken from this forum which states:

When you kitesurf, you will experience a lot of other water users:
 windsurfers
 surfers
 sailors
 boats
 fishermen
 swimmers
 divers
 jet skis
In general, keep away from any of them! We are the smallest group of all, so we are more likely to get in trouble than the other way around...
Although sailors and windsurfer apply to the same rights of way, it does not make sense to get in their way and cause any trouble. Windsurfers are a bit different, since they also are used to share an area with more riders, so knowing the rules is very common.
Observe the windsurfers when riding, and see if they stick to the rules or not. Some will never leave their course, so be ready to change yours.
From any other water user the distance should be far enough to not get into trouble. Even surfers, who, ones in the wave, will not stop for you or let you pass. They don't get as many waves as others, so leave the right of way to them, as to anyone else On the Wave.
Big boats and ships cannot easily change their course, so never ever get into their way, since they also create a wind shadow, where you will most like not get out and your kite can drop.
Respect the fishermen, they are working hard, so don't get in trouble with them.
Always look out for divers, either snorkelers or real divers with buoys. Never come too close to any of them.


I do not agree with only one item: a jetski. I do not understand why we suppose to give a way?!
Please see comments from my book:

More over we give way to power-driven crafts and vessels longer than 7 metres as well. The explanation of this fact is based on facts mentioned above. The other shorter power-driven crafts have to give way to us. The Code establishes the limit of 7 meters for practical reasons. Such small crafts are easy controllable and pretty often more manoeuvrable than a kitesurfer. Therefore we should have the right of the way over any jet-skis or small speed boats. The worst scenario on the water nowadays is to have a jet-ski rental next to a kitesurfing spot. It is easy to predict the behaviour of a teenager who rents such a powerful machine for 15 minutes and additionally hears that according to binding rules kitesurfers give him the way. He should keep away from us! Author hopes that this principle based on common sense will be widely accepted in the world of water sports.
What about a ski-jet towing a rubber banana, a water skier or a wake boarder? In this case we give way due to their restricted manoeuvrability. It is exactly the same like in ColRegs where towing tugs have the status of “vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre” and all other vessels have to give way to them.
In some situations, especially during meetings on the opposite courses, it may be difficult to assess a craft’s dimensions. In case of any doubt we assume that the craft is longer than 7 meters and then we give way according to the Rule Responsibility.


wave rider have it wrong?
I kinda doubt it
, if you are in a wave riding location
then the the people riding waves probably DON"T have it wrong!
YOU DO
If you happened across a racetrack while mowing the lawn or doing whoop de dees and would you just stick out your arm and make a left?
windsurfers and surfers ALWAYS give way to the guy on the wave


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:36 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 2917
As I understand it, windsurfers rule is :
Try to get out without getting in the way of people riding waves.
If it is not practical to get out elsewhere, and they have to get out through a riding area with waves that are a hazard to getting out, then the windsurfer going out has right of way over the windsurfer on the wave.
Its not easy to define when the waves fit that rule though.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:07 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 434
Quote:
windsurfers and surfers ALWAYS give way to the guy on the wave


Negative.

Windsurfer wave riding gives way to the outgoing one!

PWA wave rule 3.9.1. (a): In surf, a competitor who is coming in shall keep clear of a competitor who is going out.

My book:

Additional commentary requires a meeting on the wave with a windsurfer, who in similarity to us is driven by wind strength and for this reason cannot be grouped with other water users driven by muscles power alone. The windsurfing wave rule is opposite to the kitesurfing one: a windsurfer going out has right of the way over a windsurfer on the wave approaching to the shore. There is a logical explanation. The windsurfer, in contrary to the kitesurfer, cannot jump up from a flat water to fly over the breaking wave. For him it is much more difficult to break through the impact zone than come back on or between the waves. Therefore the Code states that a kitesurfer gives way to a windsurfer sailing out in the impact zone. The windsurfer sailing towards the beach has the same rights as a kitesurfer.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:57 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 434
12kite wrote:
that a was a lot of work


Excatly 11 months.


to RichardM,

I understand your point of view except one thing: how on Earth do you dare to compare kitesurfing to cannibalism :?: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: Shame on you! :wink:
I would associate it with passion and love. Some guys believe that a good wave session is better than a night with let’s say: Naomi. :wink: :D

I see a logic in your explanations but I do not know how it would be implemented nowadays. No the slightest chance – be realistic. I believe that we can discuss it on a rather academic level than a practical one. Such discussion will help to others to understand the binding rules and their justification :idea:

Please find my replies to your points:

1. I do not see a chance and reasons to change the present rules on the waves. Please note that nobody complains about it and a collision level on the waves is marginal. Why to change it? It would only bring more CONFUSION and you do not like it.

2. You are right – ROW should be simple. I do not know how to write it in a more simple way.
The rules proposed by me have a few exceptions that are described in details in the Part II (the comments). Reading the comments you may have feeling that there are too many exceptions but these comments are dedicated for beginners who cannot predict what is awaiting for them out there - on the water.
You, as the experienced one, do not need to read it. I could hide all exceptions in the rule responsibility and it would be simple great – but my intentions are different. I would like to give answers for most possible situations met on the water.

The point is that EVERBODY should know Part I very well to use the same language.
This is a matter of the compatibility.
Look at it in this way: the present situation is like a buying a computer: Microsoft or Apple. Any choice creates restrictions just at the starting point.
I propose to standardise the rules to speak the same world-wide language.
Let’s imagine: you travel to the new spot, see the standard board with additional info stating: “Rule 3 (Shore Zone) overrides Rule 7(Wave) on this spot due to difficult impact zone conditions and narrow space”.
You do not like the spot and move to another one located in the vicinity. You see the same board without any extra notifications.

Well, just one look on the board and you know what is going on there and how to obey on the water.

3. Your agreement has disappointed me. I would prefer to hear any objections in this matter.

4. Waves – please read the wise notes presented by Windrider in this topic. The sentence you quoted was taken actually from the rules by KF.com
wiki/index.php?title=On_the_Wave
It is not the best-formatted sentence but I fully agree with these rules.

5. Actually all people seeing my book and posters reckon the presented rules are SIMPLE and LOGIC. They see the kiteregs have great potential to improve SAFETY as they are based on binding customs and common sense.

6. You are right that CONFUSION cannot help to promote good values. I wrote about it in point no.2.

7. Banning is very simple as breaching of following rules results in:
Rule 3 – one month of cleaning a local beach;
Rule 4 – punctured a main tube for each offence;
Rule 7 – a life sentence as a beach-boy pumping kites to others :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The “banning” is just a lack of acceptance in a local society. That’s it. Nobody is going to give fines or yellow cards. But on other hand I would not hesitate to be “involved” when it may be necessary. Once I had a situation on a beach I ride (it’s is a kind of reserved beach for local owners). One guy (newbee) appeared with an old 20m C-shape during 20-25kts onshore winds. Helmet, board leash, floating vest, gloves, boots etc. The beach was overcrowded with sunbathers and he wanted to rig his gear in the center of the beach. 700m away there was almost empty beach. As I have never seen this chap before I kindly asked him to give up with kiting in such conditions and in this place. It did not work so I just deflated his kite by opening the main plug. I am not going to describe what was happening later… Anyway I prefer to ban any idiot on my spot then to be banned as a kitesurfer by a local people due to such idiot.

8. I am sorry but there is no way to specify who is going out and coming in during on-shore winds. Imagine the spot like Hel when during prevailing summer on-shore winds a few hundreds people ride on kitesurfing, windsurfing, water skis, jets skis in a 300 zone. All of WS and KS ride on the parallel courses to the shore. Madness!
I would say that a half would be going out of THEIR MINDS and the second half would be coming in to SUICIDE CONCLUSIONS. With rapidly growth of kitesurfing we can expected most of popular spots looking like the Hel(l).
There must be a clear rule.
Outbound or inbound division would bring only CONFUSION (and you do not like it).

9. Fine. There is something we agree. I cannot resist to tell you about a small analyse I carried out a year ago in Poland. I asked two dozens of IKO approved instructors about this rule. One third gave me a wrong answer. I was in shock to hear it. Then I checked with the competitors and the results were even worse – a half was wrong. It was one of the main reasons to begin to write my book.

For the rest of points I will answer later. I need to work in the meantime :(


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:08 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 666
Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
BraCuru wrote:
12kite wrote:
that a was a lot of work


Excatly 11 months.


to RichardM,

I understand your point of view except one thing: how on Earth do you dare to compare kitesurfing to cannibalism :?: :angryfire: :angryfire: :angryfire: Shame on you! :wink:
I would associate it with passion and love. Some guys believe that a good wave session is better than a night with let’s say: Naomi. :wink: :D

I see a logic in your explanations but I do not know how it would be implemented nowadays. No the slightest chance – be realistic. I believe that we can discuss it on a rather academic level than a practical one. Such discussion will help to others to understand the binding rules and their justification :idea:

Please find my replies to your points:

1. I do not see a chance and reasons to change the present rules on the waves. Please note that nobody complains about it and a collision level on the waves is marginal. Why to change it? It would only bring more CONFUSION and you do not like it.

2. You are right – ROW should be simple. I do not know how to write it in a more simple way.
The rules proposed by me have a few exceptions that are described in details in the Part II (the comments). Reading the comments you may have feeling that there are too many exceptions but these comments are dedicated for beginners who cannot predict what is awaiting for them out there - on the water.
You, as the experienced one, do not need to read it. I could hide all exceptions in the rule responsibility and it would be simple great – but my intentions are different. I would like to give answers for most possible situations met on the water.

The point is that EVERBODY should know Part I very well to use the same language.
This is a matter of the compatibility.
Look at it in this way: the present situation is like a buying a computer: Microsoft or Apple. Any choice creates restrictions just at the starting point.
I propose to standardise the rules to speak the same world-wide language.
Let’s imagine: you travel to the new spot, see the standard board with additional info stating: “Rule 3 (Shore Zone) overrides Rule 7(Wave) on this spot due to difficult impact zone conditions and narrow space”.
You do not like the spot and move to another one located in the vicinity. You see the same board without any extra notifications.

Well, just one look on the board and you know what is going on there and how to obey on the water.

3. Your agreement has disappointed me. I would prefer to hear any objections in this matter.

4. Waves – please read the wise notes presented by Windrider in this topic. The sentence you quoted was taken actually from the rules by KF.com
wiki/index.php?title=On_the_Wave
It is not the best-formatted sentence but I fully agree with these rules.

5. Actually all people seeing my book and posters reckon the presented rules are SIMPLE and LOGIC. They see the kiteregs have great potential to improve SAFETY as they are based on binding customs and common sense.

6. You are right that CONFUSION cannot help to promote good values. I wrote about it in point no.2.

7. Banning is very simple as breaching of following rules results in:
Rule 3 – one month of cleaning a local beach;
Rule 4 – punctured a main tube for each offence;
Rule 7 – a life sentence as a beach-boy pumping kites to others :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The “banning” is just a lack of acceptance in a local society. That’s it. Nobody is going to give fines or yellow cards. But on other hand I would not hesitate to be “involved” when it may be necessary. Once I had a situation on a beach I ride (it’s is a kind of reserved beach for local owners). One guy (newbee) appeared with an old 20m C-shape during 20-25kts onshore winds. Helmet, board leash, floating vest, gloves, boots etc. The beach was overcrowded with sunbathers and he wanted to rig his gear in the center of the beach. 700m away there was almost empty beach. As I have never seen this chap before I kindly asked him to give up with kiting in such conditions and in this place. It did not work so I just deflated his kite by opening the main plug. I am not going to describe what was happening later… Anyway I prefer to ban any idiot on my spot then to be banned as a kitesurfer by a local people due to such idiot.

8. I am sorry but there is no way to specify who is going out and coming in during on-shore winds. Imagine the spot like Hel when during prevailing summer on-shore winds a few hundreds people ride on kitesurfing, windsurfing, water skis, jets skis in a 300 zone. All of WS and KS ride on the parallel courses to the shore. Madness!
I would say that a half would be going out of THEIR MINDS and the second half would be coming in to SUICIDE CONCLUSIONS. With rapidly growth of kitesurfing we can expected most of popular spots looking like the Hel(l).
There must be a clear rule.
Outbound or inbound division would bring only CONFUSION (and you do not like it).

9. Fine. There is something we agree. I cannot resist to tell you about a small analyse I carried out a year ago in Poland. I asked two dozens of IKO approved instructors about this rule. One third gave me a wrong answer. I was in shock to hear it. Then I checked with the competitors and the results were even worse – a half was wrong. It was one of the main reasons to begin to write my book.

For the rest of points I will answer later. I need to work in the meantime :(


BraCuru:

As you know, I'm especially argumentative and obnoxious, so I'll make another stab at convincing you of my views (obviously impossible considering the amount of work you've already invested in this project). However, at least some other kiters may grasp the REAL and more subtle problem associated with giving waveriders the ROW.

The MAIN reason why outgoing riders should have the ROW is because they are generally the "least maneuverable vessel" which I'm sure you'll agree is the basis for all LEGAL maritime rules concerning ROW. (see post on page 2)

If you have ANY ONE rule which is as easy to follow in virtually EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE as "THE LESS MANEUVERABLE VESSEL (KITER) HAS THE ROW and when it doubt, yield", you have not yet stated it.

IMPORTANT ACCESS ISSUE:

The reason why I find this issue important is because I'm always also extremely concerned about ACCESS for ALL kiters, not JUST those with a certain level of technical proficiency (note that I did NOT refer to these people as necessarily "good" kiters).

By giving waveriders the ROW, newbies and less technically proficient riders are told NOT to kite at waveriding locations because they tend to interfere with waveriders who then fall back on the incorrect theory that they have the ROW and are therefore justified in calling the " ROW rule" breakers "kooks" and "UNSAFE" kiters who should be prevented from using "their" spot. This is in fact a smokescreen for a form of localism motivated by the selfish desire to limit kiters at "their" locations for their OWN BENEFIT.

I'm only concerned with beaches which are PUBLIC. Private beaches can do whatever they want. However, the LEGAL fact of the matter is that at a PUBLIC beach EVERY kiter, REGARDLESS of technical proficiency, has EXACTLY the SAME right to use the PUBLIC resource as a pro or anyone who THINKS they're a pro.

If a less proficient kiter is doing anything that's unsafe for NON-kiters, they can be told the error of their ways and if uncooperative, reported to whatever LEGAL authority controls the location. 99.9% of the time, they will be cooperative. The fact that it is INCONVENIENT for the technically proficient waveriders to avoid them is NOT the SLIGHTEST reason to try to prevent these kiters from utilizing a PUBLIC resource.

As to your argument that waveriders' influence is already so great that the basic principle of THE LESS MANEUVERABLE VESSEL (KITER) HAS THE ROW", must be sacrificed for the LESS SAFE benefit of waveriders, you may be correct.

However, this does NOT MAKE IT RIGHT. Just because someone went to an island where, for example, all the natives were cannibals, doesn't mean that cannibalism is GOOD, it just means that you're agreeing that cannibalism is necessary so YOU don't get eaten (or in this case, not sell your signs). (I'm on a diet so food is on my mind)

As to your numbered responses to my previous responses (getting hard to keep track) I'll respond briefly as follows: (for anyone interested, the numbers refer to my post on page 4)

1. "nobody complains about it". First, my name is Richard, not "nobody". Second, how do you reconcile this quote with your statements in # 9 of your post?

2. As I've repeatedly stated, there is NO simpler rule than " "THE LESS MANEUVERABLE VESSEL (KITER) HAS THE ROW and when it doubt, yield", and if there is, you have not yet stated it.

3. Sorry. I'll find something else.

4. Again, just because a bunch of influential but selfish elitists want to limit access for their own benefit, DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

5. Obviously, not all. At one point in history, if you asked EVERYONE if they thought the world was flat, they'd have agreed with you, it doesn't mean that they're correct.

6. Thanks for agreeing that the SIMPLEST solution is the best in that it avoids the most confusion.

7. Your attitude is uncivilized, ILLEGAL, ineffective and very likely to negatively affect authorities as altercations/fights come to their attention. A better solution to the problem you describe would have been to urge non-kiters in the danger zone to move and/or be ready to move when (if) the idiot actually attempted to launch. Depending upon what happened, you might call the authorities to report his unsafe behavior and/or an ambulance. Assuming that you had a physical altercation with the idiot, it could have ended very badly in many ways, not the least with your arrest and/or substantial financial liability.

8. There are very few locations such as Hel and they make up less than .01% of the total kitesurfing areas. 99% of the time you can easily tell outgoing from incoming riders even in on shore conditions - especially when dealing with SURF (the main concern herein).

9. It's comforting that you admit that almost HALF of the PROFESSIONALS you surveyed did NOT AGREE WITH YOU.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:22 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 434
RichardM wrote:
It's comforting that you admit that almost HALF of the PROFESSIONALS you surveyed did NOT AGREE WITH YOU.


Just a quick answer for the last point - they DID NOT KNOW IT :!:
Most of them have AGREED once I have explained it to them.

If you ask a Polish competitor now I believe 90% will give to correct answer for the question who has ROW (inbound or outbound).

RichardM - I wish to have a bit more time for replying. Till now, I have only managed to answer for a half of your points from your first reply.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:14 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:56 am
Posts: 3751
Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
RichardM wrote:
The MAIN reason why outgoing riders should have the ROW is because they are generally the "least maneuverable vessel" which I'm sure you'll agree is the basis for all LEGAL maritime rules concerning ROW. (see post on page 2)

If you have ANY ONE rule which is as easy to follow in virtually EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE as "THE LESS MANEUVERABLE VESSEL (KITER) HAS THE ROW and when it doubt, yield", you have not yet stated it.

IMPORTANT ACCESS ISSUE:

The reason why I find this issue important is because I'm always also extremely concerned about ACCESS for ALL kiters, not JUST those with a certain level of technical proficiency (note that I did NOT refer to these people as necessarily "good" kiters).

By giving waveriders the ROW, newbies and less technically proficient riders are told NOT to kite at waveriding locations because they tend to interfere with waveriders who then fall back on the incorrect theory that they have the ROW and are therefore justified in calling the " ROW rule" breakers "kooks" and "UNSAFE" kiters who should be prevented from using "their" spot. This is in fact a smokescreen for a form of localism motivated by the selfish desire to limit kiters at "their" locations for their OWN BENEFIT.

Your argument seems to be based on two premises:
(1) The person going out is less manu\euverable than the person on the wave, and
(2) In a beach with a shorebreak, the wave riders will take up the whole beach line.

Maneuverability

I would disagree that the person on the wave is more maneuverable than the person in going out. The person riding the wave must be in the wave to ride the wave. Once in the wave, that person has to respond to the wave's movement and power to avoid dropping his kite and stay in the wave. He/She has fewer choices than the person going out.

Before entering the water to launch, the person going out has all the freedom of a land lubber in choosing where and when to go out. The person launching can easily take off and sail down the beach before taking an out-bound tack.

Both wave rider and launcher have an objective which puts them in a position requiring skill, I think that the person going out has more options, flexibility, and maneuverability in his/her choice of actions to meet his/her objective than does the wave rider in trying to ride the wave.

What about the the beginner after they get out to the break zone? They then have ROW when trying to learrning what brought them to this location in the first place.... trying to ride the wave. They are even more of a danger at that point, and they need to have ROW over others coming out to avoid problems. The beginners are riding waves just like the seasoned riders. It's not as though the beginers and always "trying to go out". As a beginner, is it safer for you to have to give way on your outbound tack or on your wave riding tack? I think it's easier to give way on your outbound tack.

Access

At the places I ride, generally the wave riders do not take up the whole beach line riding waves. There are calmer areas between break zones that the wave riders generally use to go back out after riding a wave. Most of the places I've seen have more "non-break zones" than break-zones. But, your waters may be different. If so, then I agree that the local rules should designate a specific area that is for launching and landing so that people can launch and land without having to give way to wave riders. If the whole beach is rideable for waves, then designate an area for launching and landing.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:14 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:28 pm
Posts: 1682
Location: i m lost cause kiting adrenaline steal my soul with heart
BraCuru wrote:
RichardM wrote:
It's comforting that you admit that almost HALF of the PROFESSIONALS you surveyed did NOT AGREE WITH YOU.


Just a quick answer for the last point - they DID NOT KNOW IT :!:
Most of them have AGREED once I have explained it to them.

cuz there's no swell / waves at lake in poland , lol
that was only local for polisk kiters


If you ask a Polish competitor now I believe 90% will give to correct answer for the question who has ROW (inbound or outbound).

RichardM - I wish to have a bit more time for replying. Till now, I have only managed to answer for a half of your points from your first reply.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: Kite Regulations (KiteRegs) - rights of way
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:38 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1430
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
Windrider wrote:
RichardM wrote:
The MAIN reason why outgoing riders should have the ROW is because they are generally the "least maneuverable vessel" which I'm sure you'll agree is the basis for all LEGAL maritime rules concerning ROW. (see post on page 2)

If you have ANY ONE rule which is as easy to follow in virtually EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE as "THE LESS MANEUVERABLE VESSEL (KITER) HAS THE ROW and when it doubt, yield", you have not yet stated it.

IMPORTANT ACCESS ISSUE:

The reason why I find this issue important is because I'm always also extremely concerned about ACCESS for ALL kiters, not JUST those with a certain level of technical proficiency (note that I did NOT refer to these people as necessarily "good" kiters).

By giving waveriders the ROW, newbies and less technically proficient riders are told NOT to kite at waveriding locations because they tend to interfere with waveriders who then fall back on the incorrect theory that they have the ROW and are therefore justified in calling the " ROW rule" breakers "kooks" and "UNSAFE" kiters who should be prevented from using "their" spot. This is in fact a smokescreen for a form of localism motivated by the selfish desire to limit kiters at "their" locations for their OWN BENEFIT.

Your argument seems to be based on two premises:
(1) The person going out is less manu\euverable than the person on the wave, and
(2) In a beach with a shorebreak, the wave riders will take up the whole beach line.

Maneuverability

I would disagree that the person on the wave is more maneuverable than the person in going out. The person riding the wave must be in the wave to ride the wave. Once in the wave, that person has to respond to the wave's movement and power to avoid dropping his kite and stay in the wave. He/She has fewer choices than the person going out.

Before entering the water to launch, the person going out has all the freedom of a land lubber in choosing where and when to go out. The person launching can easily take off and sail down the beach before taking an out-bound tack.

Both wave rider and launcher have an objective which puts them in a position requiring skill, I think that the person going out has more options, flexibility, and maneuverability in his/her choice of actions to meet his/her objective than does the wave rider in trying to ride the wave.

What about the the beginner after they get out to the break zone? They then have ROW when trying to learrning what brought them to this location in the first place.... trying to ride the wave. They are even more of a danger at that point, and they need to have ROW over others coming out to avoid problems. The beginners are riding waves just like the seasoned riders. It's not as though the beginers and always "trying to go out". As a beginner, is it safer for you to have to give way on your outbound tack or on your wave riding tack? I think it's easier to give way on your outbound tack.

Access

At the places I ride, generally the wave riders do not take up the whole beach line riding waves. There are calmer areas between break zones that the wave riders generally use to go back out after riding a wave. Most of the places I've seen have more "non-break zones" than break-zones. But, your waters may be different. If so, then I agree that the local rules should designate a specific area that is for launching and landing so that people can launch and land without having to give way to wave riders. If the whole beach is rideable for waves, then designate an area for launching and landing.


Windrider,

Thanks for offering a simple and sensible explanation to a thread that seems to have gotten so over-burdened with theoretical and fabricated "ROW" rules. I got dizzy trying to sort thru some of this stuff...they should be writing rules for the TSA/Homeland Security instead.

Maneuverability is a BIG KEY to all of this, and when you couch the discussion in terms of "STAND ON" vs "GIVE WAY" vessels instead of who has "ROW" it might actually begin to make sense for those who still question it. It is almost universally accepted that the concept of "ROW" is obsolete. People should really start using the proper language when discussing these issues. Sure, it might be easier for people to understand "ROW" but clearly it also makes it easier to confuse matters. They changed the terminology for this reason.

The viewpoint "Windrider" offered about "access" while launching and landing seems logical and fitting. If some particular hazard requires "giving way" to outbound riders because they have limited maneuverability - then logically this is consistent with the intent of the standard rule. If the local spot requires a "lane" or "channel" to allow safe entering and exiting of the water, and assuming all kiters eventually need both, then of course it can be established as a local rule because it follows the precepts of the fundamental "rules".

To some degree application of the rules of navigation are always subject to hazards that are fixed or unfixed, weather conditions, currents, type of vessels involved, and sometimes even with consideration for the operator of the vessel (e.g. even though another vessel being operated in violation of the rules it remains the obligation of all operators to avoid a collision in a seamanlike manner).

A lot of people want to argue that you cannot make rules that fit both large vessels, small vessels, commercial or non commercial, kiteboarders, etc...all at the same time...but I disagree. There is a basic body of rules which include other rules that point out and allow for the exceptions...but they are all largely, if not entirely, rooted in the fundamental concepts and priorities of "collision avoidance and maneuverability".

It would be great to hear from a maritime law expert who is also a kiteboarder that could give an "in a nutshell" viewpoint of this subject.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bikelock, Exabot [Bot], Lanc, markchatwin, PinkNorthPride, pmaggie, TheRussian, windsuks and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group