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 Post subject: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:49 am 
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I keep seeing interesting things about foil kites. What's the story? If they are so good why hasn't everyone jumped on the bandwagon? I'm looking at a flysurfer or HQ Neo 2, any input would also be cool...


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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:34 am 
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Please don't even consider buying "foil" kites, they are hopeless. Inflatables are vastly superior to ram airs. I've summarised the reasons for the superiority of inflatables:

1: LIFT TO DRAG RATIO (L/D)
- Rams have a HUGE drag ("D") coefficient compared to inflatables, making them more inefficient. This is reflected in their poorer lift and inability to fly as close to the window's edge as inflatables. Large rams can pull steadily enough, but lack the aerodynamic finesse of good quality inflatables.

2: INERTIA
- Because large ram airs contain a much larger mass of air compared to inflatables within their pockets, inertia is HUGE. Large ram air kites contain OVER 11kg of air in their cells vs 2-3 kg for inflatables. It is very difficult to move this mass of air across the sky. This causes a multitude of problems including poor lift, slow turning, slow sining, and difficulty kitelooping. Excessive inertia also means that ram air kites to have a much narrower "sweet spot" for unhooking, which is one of the reasons ram air kites are poor choices for wakestyle riding.

3: RIGIDITY, STABILITY, & FOIL SHAPE
- Semi-rigidity improves consistency, stability, turning, and handling. It means inflatables are able to withstand gusty conditions better than ram airs. Ram airs often fold, collapse, and twist in gusty conditions. Kite makers are always looking for ways to make kites more internally rigid, eg by joining the struts firmly to the leading edge, adding fifth lines, and bridles.
- For stability problems in ram airs stemming from lack of internal rigidity, see: http://www.foilzone.com/phpBB2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0
- Inflatables have a consistent foil shape because they are semi rigid. Rams deform and change their foil shape which causes an inconsistent aerodynamic profile.

4: TURNING
- Far from being a hindrance, the tips of inflatable act as rudders, enabling faster, more controlled turns.
- When in the air, the semi rigid tips of inflatables create a "sled effect" whereby the kite sits stably and predictably above you. This effect is noticeably less in bow kites and ram airs.
- Rigidity facilitates turning. Bar input TWISTS the WHOLE kite, causing a rudder effect at the wing tips to accelerate turns. Lack of internal rigidity means that rams can't twist as aerodynamically as inflatos, meaning their turning and feedback is sloppier and less precise.

5: LUFF CURVE/DEPTH PROFILE
- Luff curves vary extensively. Inflatables with flat luff curves sit forward in the window whereas inflatables with deeper luff curves sit further back in the window. It is the same principle as sailing: If you want more "bottom" end with a sail, you deepen the luff curve (eg letting out the outhaul on a sailboard). If you want more "high" end, you make the luff curve shallower (eg sheeting in the outhaul on a sailboard). There is a lot of difference amongst luff curves on kites; this determines a lot of handling differences. It's a matter of trying different inflatables until you find one you like.
- The excessive drag and inertia of ram airs causes them to sit further back in the window compared to inflatables. Hence, there is less scope for ram designers to modify the luff curve.
- Because of the semi-rigid structure inherent to inflatables the luff curve is much easier to standardise and maintain. Semi rigidity actually enables variables like the luff curve to be really optimised. Ram airs don't have this capacity.

6: RELAUNCH
- Ram lovers make a big issue of this. It isn't a big issue. Beginners find relaunching inflatables easy after a few sesssions. Yes, some rams can reverse launch, but so what... a lot of inflatables can reverse launch. Rams can launch directly downwind in the water, but so what... so can a lot of inflatables. Anyway, downwind launches are dangerous for beginners because of the risk of being flung or carted downwind. For intermediates and above, relaunching should not even be considered in the equation because a) they won't be dropping the kite much anyway and b) Relaunching inflatables is EASY. Commonly, ram airs will not relaunch properly because of twisting, bridle tangles, or waterlogging. These aren't such big problems with inflatables.

7: SAFETY
Inflatables are safer than ram airs because:
a) Downwind launches are bloody SCARY and can be dangerous. Eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2359529 . Because only a small bunch of slightly odd people use ram airs, there is confusion about their correct use, leading to potentially dangerous situations eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2360971
b) Because they lack internal rigidity, rams deform, twist, wineglass, and jellfish in the middle of the power zone etc when they are downwind of obstacles, in rotors, and in VERY gusty conditions. This is VERY dangerous. Some of the most frightening kitemares witnessed have involved ram users in gusty conditions - their kites have been virtually uncontrollable and have endangered both the rider and other beach users.
c) Surf conditions
-- While it is always a gamble if your kite gets caught by a wave, at least you've got a fighting chance if it is an inflatable. If it is a ram air, it's all over.

8: BRIDLE TANGLES & FAILURES
Bridle tangles are disturbingly common with ram airs. Check this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2354115&start=30
In particular, note the statement by "schmoe" that goes: "A bridle tangle on flysurfer can mean that you do not go out... For me I had many lost hours where the wind is cranking because of the bridles. I rather inflate 5 tubes and know that the setup time is exactly 10 minutes, no more no less, than have setup time that is 70% 5 minutes and 30% an hour. And now with one pump, the setup time of a tube is less, so it is not an advantage of the foil anymore."
Ram air bridle tangles can be very dangerous. A lot of riders have reported how their ram airs caught seaweed in their bridles, causing their kites to wineglass and spin out of control.

Bridle breakages occur surprisingly frequently with ram airs. They can be expensive (US $500 plus) (eg see the thread titled "Flysurfer Warrior Exploding:" phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4612 ) .

9: PRE-INFLATING
- Ram users struggle to pre-inflate their kites in a lot of situations eg cross- offshore conditions. I once witnessed a Flysurfer lover trying to launch at a point break in cross offshore conditions. He had to get a friend (inflatable rider) to grab one tip while he grabbed the other tip and they both ran up and down the narrow strip of beach, trying to pre-inflate - to no avail. He had to pack up and go home while the inflatable riders were able to do drift launches. Without pre-inflation, ram users find it very difficult to drift launch, a skill that is often required eg Promontory/headland launches.

10: RESALE
- Contrary to the propaganda of ram lovers, ram airs and inflatos have similar lifespans. The major determinant of lifespan is obsolescence. In 2-3 years, whatever you're using now won't be worth much and will be superseded.

11: REPAIRS
- Ram air repairs are generally a LOT more expensive. For example, this phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4612 required a PARACHUTE repairer to fix his kite, costing well over $1000. Bills over $1000 are common, eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2348790
- In the first example above, Flysurfer refused to honor the warranty, even though the kite was less than a year old.

12: COMPETITION
Ram lovers frequently make ridiculous claims about upcoming competitions that they will "dominate." They then go on to get blown out of the water. For example, they said that various kites from Flysurfer (Psycho, Silver Arrow, Warrior, Voodoo, Titan, Insert Name Here..... etc) would dominate the pro kitesurfing circuit. It has never happened. No ram riders have ever made it into the top 20 on the PKRA - ref www.pkra.info . Ram lovers said ram airs would dominate the Cabo Verde Wave event... They didn't. They said ram airs would dominate the "low-wind" showdown in San Diego - They didn't. The top pro riders ALL ride inflatables because of their superior aerodynamic properties. It's interesting that ALL the world records in hang-time, as well as unofficial records like Eric Eck's crazy jump, are held by inflatables. Ram airs aren't even on the same page.

13: LAND & SNOW
Check out this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2355153 Not only are inflatables superior on water (because of better aerodynamic performance, jumping, stability, and safety), they are also superior on snow and land for the same reasons.

14: LIGHT WINDS
Ram airs are inferior light wind kites for the following reasons:
1) Excessive drag (bridles, lack of internal rigidity), compromising the Lift/Drag ratio
2) VERY slow turning
3) Inertia. The Speed 2 19 contains over 11kg of air in its pockets, compared to about 3kg in the largest inflatables.
4) Bridle failures and tangling
5) Wind dropouts and gear failure
--EVERYONE experiences a few gear failures (eg broken lines) and COMPLETE wind dropouts every year. You're usually safe with an inflatable. It can be used to "self-rescue" or you can swim in with the kite. If things go REALLY bad, you can just use the inflatable structure to support your weight.
--ALL ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged after 45 minutes - unlaunchable and certainly unable to support your body weight. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2358958&p=608890#p608890
6) 8 knot limit
-- Despite what anybody tells you, you won't really have fun on any kite (ram air OR inflatable) unless the wind is over about 8 knots. This is the starting point for BOTH ram airs and inflatables, but because of the reasons I've outlined above, inflatables are vastly superior. And this is just the starting point. You won't really be having fun until it hits about 10 knots on an inflatable OR a ram air.
- Ram lovers are prone to exaggeration and just plain misinformation about light winds, eg see the following thread: Ram airs jump 8m in 8 knots ("The future is bright, the future is foil") https://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php ... &view=next
7) Objective Testing
-- A variety of kites were tested in light wind conditions in San Diego a few years ago viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2319439&hilit=ram+airs+crash+in+san+diego . Despite the ridiculous over-hyped claims from Flysurfer reps like Ted Bautista, Flysurfer ram air kites crashed and burned. The overall consensus was that Flysurfer ram air kites are ok in light wind, but they turn VERY SLOWLY. The overall impression was that there are much better inflatables. It's interesting that a lot of the ram air guys who were excited about this showdown were remarkably SILENT afterwards, in particular, Ted Bautista, the U.S. rep for Flysurfer. His alpha-male chest-beating rants in the lead up to this showdown almost defied belief.
For an example of the LIES that ram lovers tell about their kites, checkout viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2350141&p=539227#p539227
8) Flysurfer and Light Winds
See the thread about the poor light wind properties of Flysurfer viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2349064


15: GEEKS
Amongst inflatable riders, there is a certain amount of collegiality. Inflatable riders tend to hang out together and help each other on the beach and on the water. If you fly a ram air, you'll always be a bit on the outside; regarded as a bit weird and not really part of the group. Part of this is because you will always be in a minority on the beach, part of it is because ram airs are so rare that inflatable riders are a scared/unsure of ram airs, and part of it is because, as a group, ram rides ARE a bit weird. Anyway, one of the problems with being part of a weird minority on the beach is that it can be very difficult to find people to help launch and land your kite, eg http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topi ... C_ID=51465


Ignore the ram air propaganda. Ignore the lies. Ram airs are aerodynamically inferior to LEIs and nothing can change this.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:29 am 
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Just ignore the Pump-Keen But's, "Peelosophy" :bye:


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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:31 am 
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Thank God somebody had the presence of mind to put a towel on that piece of furniture.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:57 am 
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Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
Being an LEI rider, my impression of foils is from watching them fly. We have 2 here that started flying: a Peter Lynn Phantom 17, and a Flysurfer 19m.

The foils seem to be slower turning in the air, but they seem to have very good stability with good low end and a wide range. To me, they look like they would be excellent park-and-ride kites. ( I wonder if they would make a good long distance kite for going from Maui to Oahu?) Seems like they would also have good hang time. I've heard that they have a harder time going downwind than LEI's..

I'd like to try one to see what they feel like. Between Peter Lynn and Flysurfer, I'd be inclined to go with the Peter Lynn just because of the simplicity of the bridle. The Flysurfer bridles are flat-outrigtht scary because of all the lines coming off the leading edge. That's a heck of a lot of lines to get tangled in a tree or to potentially stretch unevenly.

But, I think I've gotten spoiled by the quick turning responsiveness of the LEI's, and it sure doesn't look like the foils have that same speed in turning. They're also more expensive, aren't they?


Last edited by Windrider on Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:23 am 
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Ignore "Pump me up" he is our local retard.

Personally I prefer FS to Peter Lynn as they have a better low end and turn faster but year PL is simpler. As for which FS it depends what you want to do with it. Speed 3 has an amazing low end and is good for old school, Psycho 4 is fast turning more new school and the Pulse 2 is more middle of the road lower aspect kite, its easy to fly has reasonable turning etc.

Compared to an bow I would say they are slower turning, relaunch in less wind, better low end (speed 3), easier self launch, have a bridle (wow scary)

In the end though these debates are futile because everyone says their kite is best...


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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:39 am 
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Location: Malibu
njrider wrote:
I keep seeing interesting things about foil kites. What's the story? If they are so good why hasn't everyone jumped on the bandwagon? ..


I think it has a lot to do with the business models and the marketing and "heard effect" (no offence intended.

First of all when the inventers of the LEI came up with the idea they decided not to go into manufacturing themselves, but preferred to license the type of construction to whoever wanted to make it. The result was many brands hitting the market. Along with the many companies third party manufacturers also appeared. These companies mainly in China can get new companies up and running with a product in no time. That is why we see new brands popping up all the time.
This has also increased competition so these companies have been forced to spend a lot on marketing. However this has not led to much differentiation in the company’s products. There are not huge differences in kite designs. The vast majority are basically all making the same kite.
Another thing too is that the construction of a LEi is in some ways closer to the construction of a widsurfer sail. Heavier fabrics, multiple layers of fabric, local reinforcements etc. This made this kind of construction more compatible with windsurfer sail makers.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:42 am 
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To give you better input what type of wind range, conditions etc are you planning to ride in.
Also whats your weigh, hight etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:52 am 
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Boy, Pump Me Up - you really want to update your spam ... not only is it old, but a lot of it is just WRONG.

My personal opinion is that there are fewer foils out there cos they're not marketed as aggressively eg. Peter Lynn, and they're more expensive and hold their used value eg. Fly Surfer.

In my limited experience, I've had inflatoballs lose air and get punctures 3 times. My arc's have never let me down :thumb: and if they did, I can fix them myself and be riding again in a few minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil kite vs. inflatable kite
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:00 am 
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to answer the original post...

HQ neo 2 just came on the market , few people tested it and not many people had the neo 1....so not many feedback on that kite. just heard they improved the kite pretty well ( neo 1 was a sub pulse2), not expensive, i would say in the peter lynn range price.

Flysurfer, it will come down to your riding program
- speed3: park and ride kite , despite the turning speed has increased a lot, light wind machine. big air, race/cruise. the kite can drift a lot more tha the speed² now.

-psycho4: the freestyle kite. still turn slower than Peter lynn equivalent tho but better low end.

-pulse 2: freeride kite, low aspect ratio, the versatile kite. no brainer kite.


the HQ and flysurfer have the same launch set up and landing.i would put the neo2 in the same program as the pulse2 tho.

OT: peter lynn is coming with a new kite , this year, the charger (replacing the synergy), it s a C-shape kite, C-shape feeling and type of ride, 4 lines, no bridles, freestyle kite, good/very good in the middle/high wind range. they added some pulleys for a faster depower, wind range is the same as the SLE/hybrids.
Peter lynn kites are probably the best drifting kites, can t hinderburg them even on snow, they just drift faster than u...and they have the autozenith, in waves, that helps a lot and save your kite...

@ windrider: the phantom is a high aspect ratio kite (and a 2004-5 kite, yeah....that old, compare it with the same year LEI kite) and is a park and ride kite, big air kite. flysurfer speed² 19 as well, those big size are slow turners and as slow as LEI of the same size (17 and 19 are BIG kites)...
the speed 19 is a park and ride kite and most efficient when parked, sinning it, u will lose efficiency.
P4 and pulse² (regular sizes/small sizes) and the synergy/charger are on par with most of the SLE or close to ( synergy/charger especially)
Peter lynn kites are the less expensive kites on the market, well, here anyway, (20% less than the LEI ones), flysurfer ones are on the upper price , on part with naish/cab and many others, the speed being in their own categories of price..... (faaarrr above any kite)
with the P4 and speed3 they improved the bridles rigidity, less tangles if none. and yes when i got my speed² , the bridles were scary at first look, and at the second...and the third :), i prefer the PL kite simplicity by far..but the low end of the speed² is a killer....

i ve learnt on LEI and ride from time to time LEIs, so i still have some knowledge on the modern LEI but they still need some improvements in the departments i m loking ina kite and the LEI don t provide..so until then i stick to the ARC and foil for the light wind.


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