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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of KITES
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:07 pm 
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Location: Miami @ 6" Flat Butter!
Pump me up wrote:
The other kiters refusing to help is understandable:
Fred made the choice to choose less safe equipment (ram airs - for self rescue)
That's BS, none of the types are safer :!:
I've seen a lot of inflatable failers also with exploding leading edge in the air
just by flying them normally in deep waters, so you can't trust them either a 100%.
They had to be rescued.

The problem of bad choice of kite excist for inflato riders also, like yesterday at Hobbie Beach.
Choosing less safe large kites when the storm is moving in yesterday, see windchart :!:
It's their problem and they shouldn't impose on others to make up for the deficiencies in their equipment,
and the scared cooks waving people to help them catching their kites in 40 mph winds.
Some others were rescued by sailboats and jet skis while others were smeshed to the sea wall,
exloding and abandoning kites swimming for life, what I just heard today.
Why they have not been able to "self-rescue" by grabbing the tips and "sailing" to shore :?:
It's understandable they made a bad choice.
Also, catcing a wild uncontrolled rigid inflato Flying everywhere is - horrible. :evil:
If you don't believe it check the evidence here which is self explanatory:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2362066

Ignore the lies. Ignore the exaggerations. Ram airs are not inferior
compared to inflatables in wind dropouts and gear failures.


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HOBBIE BEACH WND.png
HOBBIE BEACH WND.png [ 129.28 KIB | Viewed 580 times ]


Last edited by DrLightWind on Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:08 pm 
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Hi Weasel
Unfortunately we do have a group of riders who not only unsafely and inefficiently " teach" their buds to kite around here and then just let them (even their girlfriends) flounder and be rescued by those of us who are concerned with keeping the local area opened to kiting and respect good old common decency and harbor and navs law. As a long time lifeguard in the area/original kite instructor, I made it clear to the lifeguard, fire, sherrif rescue supervisors that would want to shut down the sport do to a few bad apples that we were in general a group that could self rescue and help our own with good common sense. Most of us have made inumerable rescues of kites/kiters/boards, etc.over the years and I feel justified in my statement to the authorities. I would like to thank those who have rescued me after equipment failures, etc. and lost part of kiting day over the years and not just the good friends who would obviously come to your aid.

People do need to be called out for lack of ethical behavior and rewarded for good actions. Most likely the wind on the day of Fred's event was our common side off (That was the good wind day last week Fred?) and rescue of others gear or at the very least a tow in offer would not have been illogical or dangerous to the rescuer. Saw the conditions up and down coast and in evening, when thought I saw you on beach. Were you at Zuma? If it was straight off shore Fred, you should know better though the two kiters could have at least checked to see if you were ok. Really don't think it was off as drove by and saw flags. They taught us in junior guards way back when we were 10 yo, never put yourself in critical danger as to not be able to help your victim. These guys could have helped, pure and simple. Have sustained injuries and exacerbated others rescuing kiters and their equipment over the years but like to think there was always a solid reason to do rescue.. A messed up shoulder inhibits now but can always get the victim. Maybe what goes around does not come around but you would hope that the worst in human behavior is not rewarded or encouraged at the very least.

One problem around here is the equipment is a danger to beachgoers, surfers, etc. when realeased freely and in the conditions Fred refers to, a ditched kite would have brought on a 911 call from someone on the coast and all lifeguard, and fire agencies and often Coast Guard or Sheriff hilicopter are obliged to respond at a crazy cost to all involved entities. Next comes closure of that beach because some self centered arshole did not want to help but was perfectly capable. Fred is no idiot and actually quite an intellect if you would ever meet him in person and talk with him. He is a bit enthusiastic about his particular equipment choices but it is refreshing to see his enthusiasm continue as he gains more experience in the sport and endures close mindedness from some of the ill-informed on some fronts. It would be horrible to imagine somone would be derilict to good citizen code ( in US, helps covers us from liability when trying to help someone in dire need) because they don't like the type of kite the victim has... Around here we very frequently rescue the same butt heads who never help others, close our beaches and disrespect authority and flame us at every opportunity. It comes down to humanity.

We tend to drag in anyone we see in trouble around here, rarely performing the flashy, hook the leading edge under arm and pull the kite in while riding the board trick as a wad of kelp catching the dragging lines and bar can take out a shoulder....Yep, done it. It really can greatly shorten or end your session to rescue people around here but we always do it. When kelp catches the equipment, it is stable in teh bed and we always drag in the kiter first and then go back for the equipment in the kelp. It often comes down to those of us flying arcs at this point as we can let our kites sit overhead while we untagle their equipment from the kelp bed, deflate bladders, etc. at this point with no hands on bar needed. If Fred's occurence was where I think, there is no kelp and they could have rescued him quite easily. Saw the guys leave the beach we were kiting at to do a down winder this particualr day and these guys are very experienced kiters. Most likely they were the same guys.

Like you TopHat, have a hell of a time trying to drag in the sigma shape kites from center under arm style in any conditions. been body dragging with their leading edge on top of my strapless board.
We have a lot of nice people up here kitesurfing. Shame the bad ones exist in our culture at all. Same guys have told the local lifeguards to F off, etc.. Narcissism is a very ugly condition. Glad RM is your friend and was able to give you a swimming hand Fred. Remember the local guard supervisors goast these kite sites so lets keep them aware that most of us are helpful.
Kite Safe. Traig
Monkeyair.com


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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
flyingweasel wrote:
FredBGG wrote:
The other day I had a front line fail.

With out going into too much detail.....
Wind was slightly off shore...
Pretty strong current...

I really needed a tow to the beach.
I had the kite safely on the 5th line folded in half (flysurfer Foil)
I had the broken line safely wrapped around the bar.

I waved down two kiters.... both expert judging by their riding.
Both refused to help.
One even yelled if you can't relaunch it's your problem.

Anyway after a difficult ordeal in the surf and current I got back to the beach.
I had to rest a bit but my board was still out there.
At that point another kitesurfer had just arrived... he threw on his wetsuit and asked me to
spot for my surfboard while he swam out through the surf and current to get it.

So two very different types of kitesurfers.
The type you ask for help and they refuse and the ones you don't even ask for help and they go way oput of their way to help.

Big thanks to Rich of www.malibukitesurfing.com for retrieving my board!

To the other two kiters...... If your in distress don't worry I will help you out regardless..... because I'm just that kind of kiter.


Fred, I`m going to reserve judgement on this one till hearing the other side, given that and your propensity for drama and BS.

From what you have written I see you were out in strong current etc.

At least they were good enough to come close enough to find out if you needed immediate help.

How can you compare someone towing you and your kite to the beach with their kite in difficult conditions to someone swimming in to get your board???

I would not put myself in danger to save anyones gear. If you can`t relaunch and maintain you want to hold onto your gear in difficult conditions I too would tell you wise up and swim for it. I have twice gone to assist folk in the water in imminant danger to find they are only concerned about their gear. One was a windsurfer on the reef in Cayman more concerned about his windsurfer when he was in serious trouble and the other a local in serious trouble looking to go into the rocks and more concerned about his board. Both cases I left to their own devices but kept an eye on should professional help need to be called.

To say you would help regardless is BS or you have psychological problems which I am sure you do given your postings.

Yes there are two types of kiter , stupid and intelligent. You are (without going into to much detail as you put it, the former)


Although Fred mentioned in the SECOND line of his post, that he was leaving out much detail, you have somehow divined all the relevant aspects of the situation in order to try to justify the kiters' less than admirable behavior.

First, some of the relevant "drama" details Fred didn't list include that the wind was gusting up to 34 MPH, the location has very heavy kelp which can cause severe problems, the wind and current push you towards the end of the beach which then becomes large jagged, barnacle encrusted rocks, the surf was 5-6' and 56-58 deg F, the 2 kiters mentioned were the only ones in the water and there were no kiters or anyone else on the beach.

Fortunately, Fred managed to get just inside of the kelp thereby avoiding a kelp nightmare and got in well before the rocks. His board, however was drifting quickly towards the rocks - fast enough so that there was no way I could set up my kite to go out and get it.

I agree that it is unwise to attempt to help another kiter unless you're confident that it can be done safely. However, Fred's kite was downwind of him and obviously unlaunchable. If the kiters felt that they could not aid him while on their board, because Fred was inside of the major kelp plantation, they could have dropped their board on the beach, body dragged out and towed him in bodydragging. At the very least, they could have gotten his board. If necessary, by leaving theirs on the beach and bodydragging out to get his.

Second, you assume that the kiters came close enough to see if Fred needed "immediate help". Although it's possible that this was their purpose and they would have offered aid if he needed "immediate help", I personally doubt it. They both immediately went upwind and away and definitely seemed to have no interest in helping regardless of the possibility that he might shortly require "immediate help". Additionally, they could not have known that I was present since I was at my car and out of view in the parking lot putting on my wetsuit.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:00 am
Posts: 471
RichardM wrote:
flyingweasel wrote:
FredBGG wrote:
The other day I had a front line fail.

With out going into too much detail.....
Wind was slightly off shore...
Pretty strong current...

I really needed a tow to the beach.
I had the kite safely on the 5th line folded in half (flysurfer Foil)
I had the broken line safely wrapped around the bar.

I waved down two kiters.... both expert judging by their riding.
Both refused to help.
One even yelled if you can't relaunch it's your problem.

Anyway after a difficult ordeal in the surf and current I got back to the beach.
I had to rest a bit but my board was still out there.
At that point another kitesurfer had just arrived... he threw on his wetsuit and asked me to
spot for my surfboard while he swam out through the surf and current to get it.

So two very different types of kitesurfers.
The type you ask for help and they refuse and the ones you don't even ask for help and they go way oput of their way to help.

Big thanks to Rich of www.malibukitesurfing.com for retrieving my board!

To the other two kiters...... If your in distress don't worry I will help you out regardless..... because I'm just that kind of kiter.


Fred, I`m going to reserve judgement on this one till hearing the other side, given that and your propensity for drama and BS.

From what you have written I see you were out in strong current etc.

At least they were good enough to come close enough to find out if you needed immediate help.

How can you compare someone towing you and your kite to the beach with their kite in difficult conditions to someone swimming in to get your board???

I would not put myself in danger to save anyones gear. If you can`t relaunch and maintain you want to hold onto your gear in difficult conditions I too would tell you wise up and swim for it. I have twice gone to assist folk in the water in imminant danger to find they are only concerned about their gear. One was a windsurfer on the reef in Cayman more concerned about his windsurfer when he was in serious trouble and the other a local in serious trouble looking to go into the rocks and more concerned about his board. Both cases I left to their own devices but kept an eye on should professional help need to be called.

To say you would help regardless is BS or you have psychological problems which I am sure you do given your postings.

Yes there are two types of kiter , stupid and intelligent. You are (without going into to much detail as you put it, the former)


Although Fred mentioned in the SECOND line of his post, that he was leaving out much detail, you have somehow divined all the relevant aspects of the situation in order to try to justify the kiters' less than admirable behavior.

First, some of the relevant "drama" details Fred didn't list include that the wind was gusting up to 34 MPH, the location has very heavy kelp which can cause severe problems, the wind and current push you towards the end of the beach which then becomes large jagged, barnacle encrusted rocks, the surf was 5-6' and 56-58 deg F, the 2 kiters mentioned were the only ones in the water and there were no kiters or anyone else on the beach.

Fortunately, Fred managed to get just inside of the kelp thereby avoiding a kelp nightmare and got in well before the rocks. His board, however was drifting quickly towards the rocks - fast enough so that there was no way I could set up my kite to go out and get it.

I agree that it is unwise to attempt to help another kiter unless you're confident that it can be done safely. However, Fred's kite was downwind of him and obviously unlaunchable. If the kiters felt that they could not aid him while on their board, because Fred was inside of the major kelp plantation, they could have dropped their board on the beach, body dragged out and towed him in bodydragging. At the very least, they could have gotten his board. If necessary, by leaving theirs on the beach and bodydragging out to get his.

Second, you assume that the kiters came close enough to see if Fred needed "immediate help". Although it's possible that this was their purpose and they would have offered aid if he needed "immediate help", I personally doubt it. They both immediately went upwind and away and definitely seemed to have no interest in helping regardless of the possibility that he might shortly require "immediate help". Additionally, they could not have known that I was present since I was at my car and out of view in the parking lot putting on my wetsuit.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET



LOL, are you all a bit wierd in that area? :naughty:

Well you all better get back to the Great Malibu Marble Hunt!


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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:02 am 
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weasel wrote:
LOL, are you all a bit wierd in that area?

Well you all better get back to the Great Malibu Marble Hunt!


I don't really understand what this means? Is it some kind of idiom an American would not get? And how does this contribute in any meaningful way to the thread? Non-sequitor?

RichardM wrote:
They both immediately went upwind and away and definitely seemed to have no interest in helping regardless of the possibility that he might shortly require "immediate help"


Without any knowledge of the situation or these kiters intent, I would point out that sailing upwind would be a good tactical approach to being ready if there was a potential need for a rescue. The wrong course of action would have been to blast down the line riding waves where you have no ability to respond in a timely way.

I can tell you I would not even consider getting near somebody else's slack lines in a kelp bed while flying my own kite in 35 knot gusts and cold head high waves, and if I did my hook knife would be in hand and lines would be cut.

I hate to tell you guys, PMU is right on this one. Dragging a wet foil is bad news every bit as much as a loose LEI is getting blown down the beach. And the issue regarding EMS/CG getting worked up over the loose kite is a non-issue if you simply call them and tell them you had to abandon ship. I have made the call and they appreciate it when you let them know.


Last edited by jakemoore on Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:25 am 
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Posts: 105
Being a "newb" I understand that I don't know everything and have not experienced everything. Saying that ... I have taken lessons locally and in the keys. I have learned a great deal, but have not learned everything. I have done everything in my power to learn what to do and what not to do, when to kite and when not to kite. i sailed before , and it is unbelievable that someone would not try to help someone in distress. its common decency... let alone part of the kiters/ sailors/ humans creed to help when you can. I find it un-excusable to not at least offer help or check on someones safety irregardless of how good you are or how good the distressed kiter may be. Community and common interest should rule so we can develope and progress this sport forward. I left windsurfing to pursue kiting because of the loss of community in the windsurfing crew. I loved the fact that kiters were trying to develope and push forward a great new sport. Cut the bullS345T!!! we are all brethren of the wind, waves and stoke... take care of all in the sport and we all win... faith , Karma and all!!!

DD


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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Location: Chrono-Logic
jakemoore wrote:
weasel wrote:
Well you all better get back to the Great Malibu Marble Hunt!

I don't really understand what this means? Is it some kind of idiom an American would not get? And how does this contribute in any meaningful way to the thread? Non-sequitor?

It's a razzle-dazzle weasle smart ass technique to camouflage the meaning but I think I figured out.
First you just need to see the pick to understand more :lol:

He means more like this:

"better get back to the Great Malibu Game of better Gun" or in this case rather flying an inflatable imo :alarm:

In my opinion those guys were ignorent and stroking their ego because they were flying inflatables.
I know this kind of crap because it happened to me also several times :bye:


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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:15 pm 
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Reading this thread it is apparent that there is some sense of entitlement about the type of kiter there is out there and what he/she should do when your in a rescue type of situation. Experienced kiter or not I disagree that a downed inflatable is not any safer with a blown out LE. If you did the right thing (EZ pump etc) and locked off your struts you could have still self rescued easily by rolling up the kite and swimming it in. Lock off your struts! Where we kite we have a 2-3 knot current that could easily suck you into docks etc and way down river. I would never fly a non-inflatable kite in these conditions.

I would also not expect someone to come out and just give me a tow in if I were in a similar situation. I WOULD however expect someone to take a close enough tack to find out if I was in serious danger and stop and ask me if I was ok so I do understand the frustration. But again I'm in Georgia and we tend to look out for one another. I think kiting in a tropical vacation spot would give me a completely different view and probably teach me not to rely on anyone unless I was kiting with my buddies. I find for the most part that kiters are willing to help out and these days it seems that we should be on the lookout for even those inexperienced that are out there because if you don't help someone out and they will be the ones who end up getting your spot closed.


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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Location: europe
hum kite type is unrelevant....
- if the kite was the problem ( foil), kiter could just say, i can t manage your kite and your bridles, pack it down or drop it or whatever...
- a foil (ARC or foil)can be packed down fast and easly in the water if it s the problem, and u put it on your board. ( i ve already did it and already unpacked it and relaunched it in deep water when the wind came back)

self rescue.
how many kiters knows how to self rescue with a strong current and an offshore wind? ( i don t say bodydragging upwind with a fonctionnal kite in the air).... 5%? not many anyway.
i know that modern ARC have handles on the tips for that, foils have bridles, and despite i have a foil for lightwind, i don t see how i would self rescue myself with it, i d rather pack it down and swim.

dunno if there s a video with a self rescue in an off shore (not side or onshore) conditions.....but i d be glad to see one for personnal knowledge...

u can point whatever u want, fred or the kite or its board or the conditions.....those kiters behaviour are plain stupid....if that was they really acted likte taht.


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 Post subject: Re: Two very different types of kiters.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:18 pm 
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Location: Thailand
zerium wrote:
....Experienced kiter or not I disagree that a downed inflatable is not any safer with a blown out LE. If you did the right thing and locked off your struts you could have still self rescued easily by rolling up the kite and swimming it in. Lock off your struts! Where we kite we have a 2-3 knot current that could easily suck you into docks etc and way down river. I would never fly a non-inflatable kite in these conditions....

As a foil rider, if I would be riding in a place where there could be a risk of being sucked under water, I'd take an "inflatable" floatation device or a safety vest with me. PMU should be pleased that a ram air lover finds some qualities in inflatable things...

Alex


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