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 Post subject: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:32 am
Posts: 53
About four-times this year I've pulled the quick-release accidentally while trying to depower my below-the-bar cleat setup. When you need to it’s nearly impossible to clear the jammed line from the cleat. If you get lucky and do clear it, it's near impossible to get any leverage to pull in some depower. So I used my other hand to get some leverage. The QR just seems to be the natural place to grab, unfortunately. After a few swims, you'd think I'd learn.

The BTB setup is clean and allows for a metric-shit-ton of depower and bar travel, but is useless if you can't use it when you need it-- dangerous if you do what I seem to do.

Above-the bar-depower is way superior from a user standpoint, but some kites are less sensitive to changes in the angle-of-attack, and so need more depower and bar travel than others, hence all the below the bar setups. So, given the need for BTB setups, I wonder how bar makers can improve them?

Some thoughts:

1- Use a cam-cleat instead of a jam cleat. I know, moving parts, but being able to unjam your line is half the battle. You’re still left with the problem of pulling in the line from an impossible angle. And if you can get some depower, you’re left with the long tail with a hard ball at the end of it whipping around trying to knock out your eyeballs.

2- Loose the whole cleat setup. Use a ratcheting spool to accept the depower line roughly modeled on a bike gear shifter like a Shimano Rapidfire: http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/mountain/deore_xt.html

a. There’d be a lever with an out-of-the way neutral position you’d use to crank depower onto the spool, and there’d be a release (maybe the same lever, but opposite direction) to let the spool ratchet out for more power.

b. I know—complexity, sand, and corrosion. The mechanism would have to be sealed well. Tolerances would have to be loose enough so the thing would still work with a few grains of sand in it until you can clean it out. And you’d have to be able to wash it out easily without springs and other stuff flying around. The internals would have to be corrosion resistant.

I freely give any and all rights to this righteous idea to any manufacturer who builds it.

Since I’m on a tear, what is with all the impossible to reinsert, while a kite is dragging you further and further away from your board, chicken loops? You know, the ones with the floppy little retaining pins you have to insert into a loop and double back before you slide the red sheath retainer over them. Yeah Mr. Kite brand, just try doing that while hanging on to the chicken loop with one hand as the kite’s yanking on you.

I just got brand new Epic bar with my new Screamer 12 and was real pleased to see that the chicken loop had a plastic arrow-shaped end that simply inserts and clicks home Damn time someone got it right. It also has above-the bar-depower (buckles, no cleat). Haven’t tried it yet though.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:16 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:56 am
Posts: 3751
Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
Oh... sorry... wrong topic. I was thinking this was the one about the "Buy her a drink and she'll sit down and talk to you, but her drink costs $20 USD!" kind of thing. Sorry, wrong number.....

But, since you brought it up.... I'm sold on the above the bar webbing / buckle / friction de-power straps setup. They work super and give me lots of granularity in adjustments. Never tried the BTB kind, but I always thought that they looked hard to adjust on the fly.

It seemed like the majority of manufacturers went to BTB two years ago. Are they all staying with it, or are some changing back to ATB (above...)?

The new Epic bar sounds interesting. Always nice to see something that someone got right for a change!


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:22 am 
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Sounds like the old SS bars to me. But any who it is not a DEPOWER system!!!! It is a trim strap and it is to adjust your kite angle. You control your power with your board and where the kite is in the window. Simple if your way overpowered you have too much kite.

As for your QR problem you do not need a complicated system like you talk about. The one your envisioning would be prone to more problems with more parts to break down. All you need is a simple push away system for the release.

I feel your pain I had the same thing happen to me once when I was first learning. Hit the release to flag the kite since I was overpowered. Ended up releasing my leash because it was a pull direction and had to chase my kite down. Now my release is on my harness which I think is the best since it does not matter how I crash or whats going on with the leash my QR is all ways right behind my left hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:55 am 
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2003 2:17 pm
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Location: Waves or flat
Nice one Joe..

Its used for tuning your kite, not depowring it!!

You fine tune it once, and shouldn't be touch more that session at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:17 am 
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Location: Kailua, Hawaii, currently riding EH and OR kites (2013 Razor rocks!)
BOGUS! You folks must come from places where the wind variance is minimal. The amount of play on the bar is what you use to tune your kite as you ride. The de-power strap is to make larger scale adjustments to compensate for wind gusts/lulls that are more than just a tad. I use the de-power strap constantly while I am riding for gust/lulls, to depower the kite when I catch a wave or repower when I want to jump, or head back out etc. I use the depower strap a lot. I can do that because it is so easy to use with the ATB design. I could never do that with a BTB cleat setup.

Interesting question, tho: How much do you use the de-power strap when you are riding? I use it a lot because I like my bar position to be in the middle of its range so that I can tune up or down with the bar. If I'm riding with the bar at either extreme, I use the de-power strap to adjust so that the bar is in the middle again.

Second interesting question: Do you have an BTB (below the bar) or ATB (above the bar) depower system?

Third and last question: Do you find that the location of the depower system affects how much you use it for normal riding?

I use it a lot. I have an ATB. The fact that the depower is ATB makes it easy to use, so I use it a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:44 am 
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Location: Waves or flat
Windrider wrote:
BOGUS! You folks must come from places where the wind variance is minimal. The amount of play on the bar is what you use to tune your kite as you ride. The de-power strap is to make larger scale adjustments to compensate for wind gusts/lulls that are more than just a tad. I use the de-power strap constantly while I am riding for gust/lulls, to depower the kite when I catch a wave or repower when I want to jump, or head back out etc. I use the depower strap a lot. I can do that because it is so easy to use with the ATB design. I could never do that with a BTB cleat setup.

Interesting question, tho: How much do you use the de-power strap when you are riding? I use it a lot because I like my bar position to be in the middle of its range so that I can tune up or down with the bar. If I'm riding with the bar at either extreme, I use the de-power strap to adjust so that the bar is in the middle again.

Second interesting question: Do you have an BTB (below the bar) or ATB (above the bar) depower system?

Third and last question: Do you find that the location of the depower system affects how much you use it for normal riding?

I use it a lot. I have an ATB. The fact that the depower is ATB makes it easy to use, so I use it a lot.


I use it once, to trim the kite to work perfect for the wind that day.
I have long arms, and like the ATB the best.
But ride a BTB on my 2011 kites.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:03 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:09 am
Posts: 29
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
I'm with Windrider on the depower story, I can't remember when I last had a session with constant wind strength. Freekin' hell, in a normal day, I change kite (and board) sizes at least once.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:11 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:24 am
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Kupono wrote:
.........

1- Use a cam-cleat instead of a jam cleat. I know, moving parts, but being able to unjam your line is half the battle. You’re still left with the problem of pulling in the line from an impossible angle. And if you can get some depower, you’re left with the long tail with a hard ball at the end of it whipping around trying to knock out your eyeballs.

..........

Thoughts?


have you ever tried to pull the rope instead of tearing it out from the cleat? the correct thicness of rope is very important too. if it is just a little bit too thin it take a lot more effort to get it moving.

also - the length of the excess tail is something you can adjust when you buy a kite. i keep mine short.

i`m in the BTB depower systems camp. my man argument is that you do not have to release your board edge for depowering (in case of ATB depower you have to lean forward, thus loose some weight on the edge). that is important in the high wind

aah. and i trim my kite almost on each tack. i`m very touchy about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:09 am 
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Location: Oahu
I'm in the below the bar camp...I'm not it probably wouldn't be the only determining factor, but I really think it makes the set up so much cleaner. Not having to worry about all the stuff on the lines is nice.

Maybe it is the kites? I mean a lot of kites have so good range, that just by sheeting the bar you'll have more than enough range without every having to move the depower. I think even if the depower was above the bar..if I had to constantly adjust it it would be annoying...


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Bitch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:44 am
Posts: 125
i hardly ever use the de-power strap more than a few times in a session.
maybe before unhooking to get the bar at the right position, and when i ride i prefer the kite to have more power in it.
as for the BTB system. one of my kites has it and the other doesn't, i have no problem with it, i find it easy to use and quite accurate.
as reinis said, you need to pull the rope to be able to release it from the cleat.


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