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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:29 pm 
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Billy B. wrote:
Toby wrote:
Why stop the discussion? It is very interesting to read and learn!



I think whats really happening is your witnessing someone who has discovered Late loops and using the kite while up high after flying off a hill, try and convince others how to use them based on one set of consistant conditions, and just their personal experance. While others are sharing info based on collective knowledge based on their experance and the ideas of others doing similair stuff.

The video of Chasta is like 4 or 5 years old, I have never heard Chasta say, Use kite loops to help yourself out of updrafts if you are getting lofted. And he should have 4 or 5 more years of good solid experance in using the kite to fly then many, he is also a paragliding pilot. He and Alex Peterson are the guys I learned to fly from, We have all talked about our worst flights, our bail out plans and how to deal with any situation we could imagine while in the air.

I think everyone who has the skills nessaecery understands how to make your landings as soft as possible by using loops. Heres a video from 3 maybe 4 or so years ago where we talk about throwing multiple loops, and the saftey needed while flying with the kite. No where in the vid is the topic of using kiteloops when things go wrong covered cuz its just not a good technigue or advise except while penitrating through the wind and having the distance to loop and swing with out hitting the ground. Just like in the side hill flight into a open pit like the orginal video shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dCQEqlylg

If there was some terrain that cuased the lift to have some variable current then it would create some turbulance, but that nice smooth hill makes nice smooth wind to use across the hill then nice smooth wind to use as he flys out into the pit. On that same type of hill I would be so stoked on how nice I bet that wind is.

BB




Too many words, let's be constructive:

Please answer the following question: (regarding the minute 1.02 of my movie) :

Do you consider that kiteloops (if he mastered them) could have

helped Malik to control his landing, and to make it smoother? could he have

had picked his landing area, and have helped not to fall with his head

dangerously close to the rocks?

Vlad


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1754
Location: Miami @ 6" Flat Butter!
What would be rather impressing is to do some more upward air loft from water
and do more of those Jessie Richman’s 23 seconds hangtime with 7 kite loops :!:

DrLW


Last edited by DrLightWind on Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:13 am 
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Location: jackson WY
In the chasta video he takes off going into the wind on a narrow point and throws his loops and lands in side hill conditions. where the wind peels around the corner of the slope.
Water kites can fly through moderate rotor without collapsing I have done it. The amount of rotor a kite can handle is much like a speed wing. There is so much wing loading that collapses are not a problem. I have seen larger foils take a wingtip collapse but really having no effect on the wing. Never seen a water kite collapse.
In a lofting situation not on a hill I believe that looping like aircatcher says makes sense and could seperate you from the thermal bringing you down.
I believe that in maliks video he was in strong ridge lift and looping would not of helped. :jump:


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:44 am 
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Wayne,everything i said is only valid to a point,when facing a very strong updraft like cloud suck, kiteloop is now become very dangerous for any kite skill levels ,it could knock you out unconscious before you reach the ground due to constant g forces are too much for your body to endure which forces blood away from the head. If you are paragliding pilot you will know what i mean ( similar to wing over maneuver to bring you down,but when its too strong,you can't do it).Of course you need to comfortable with the terrace condition and understand well the sky you are playing in .I like Vlad video because it's the first one i ever see that walk you to the loops in a forgiving condition and that is a good start for someone, i think.Thank you for sharing your experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Location: jackson WY
Kiteloops will not put anywhere near the same kind of forces that you can get on a paraglider doing a spiral. wingovers are not a good way to decend nor is big ears. Doing a spiral is the best way to get down. I have been a paraglider pilot for over 15 years and have been kiting since 1998 and I believe that this gives me a little more experience in this topic than you. But in the end its JMO. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
spirals are not the "best" way to get down, they are fastest. You dont want to start a spiral 100 feet from ground, it will hurt a bit when you land. waynepjh is of course right the spiral in a paraglider is way more furious than a kiteloop, nobody blacks out doing a kiteloop, but people do black out in a spiral.

some people have this advice on doing kiteloops less than 100 feet from ground. doesnt seem like much margin for error.

whats the big rush to get to the ground anyway. the most important thing is not to panic


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:31 am 
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You guys don't seem to pay attention enough to what i said ( that why i 'm starting to feel hesitate to talk about this topic ),a typical cloud suck climbing rate is 4,000 feet per minute minimum,do your calculation right !! even looping an umbrella will let you meet g forces in this condition,you can experience this g force briefly sometimes during kiteloop by the feel of weightless and awkwardness when you try to move your muscles (it feels like something counter to your movement or you have no strength at all) so watch out for those cumulus or cumulonimbus above when you play,look up the sky around you and spot those clouds formation before flight .Btw Wayne, that spiral down that you believed the best way to come down will now become a one way ticket locked in "death spiral " in cloud suck situation for 2 reasons:
a: you will meet the g forces exponentially.
b:you will become hypoxia.
We already lost several world class pilots during the competition in those condition.
I don't claim to be better than you, but i trust my experiences and common sense because i'm always open for learning.
and EDT, i agree. the most important thing is not to panic.
Let me go, you guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:32 am 
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Location: jackson WY
You guys don't seem to pay attention enough to what i said ( that why i 'm starting to feel hesitate to talk about this topic ),a typical cloud suck climbing rate is 4,000 feet per minute minimum,do your calculation right !! even looping an umbrella will let you meet g forces in this condition,you can experience this g force briefly sometimes during kiteloop by the feel of weightless and awkwardness when you try to move your muscles (it feels like something counter to your movement or you have no strength at all) so watch out for those cumulus or cumulonimbus above when you play,look up the sky around you and spot those clouds formation before flight .Btw Wayne, that spiral down that you believed the best way to come down will now become a one way ticket locked in "death spiral " in cloud suck situation for 2 reasons:
a: you will meet the g forces exponentially.
b:you will become hypoxia.
We already lost several world class pilots during the competition in those condition.
I don't claim to be better than you, but i trust my experiences and common sense because i'm always open for learning.
and EDT, i agree. the most important thing is not to panic.
Let me go, you guys.

You really shouldn't be talking about things you are not clear on! I never speak up on topics that I don't have thorough knowledge on. A spiral is a controlled way to descend. You don't have to be locked in a spiral you can descend as fast as you want or as fast as your body can handle. In turbulent air or strong lift spiraling is the best way. Are you even a pilot? Where do you kite?
Look at one of Alex petersons ridge soaring videos you think in that kind of lift loops will bring you down? I have seen and done loops in the air that got me higher but not as high as you were when you came up with this theory! @edt I would not start a spiral 100 feet off the ground but I have watched my redbull sponsored friends do it!
Gain more knowledge on this topic before becoming so adamant about something you are obviously not clear on. Why no response to all the others laughing at your post?
@vlad erics lofting was handled perfectly he steered his kite back towards the water but when he left the thermal he was in sinking air and did not have the altitude to get back to the water. A kiteloop would of taken him farther from the water. IMO


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:09 pm 
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waynepjh wrote:

@vlad erics lofting was handled perfectly he steered his kite back towards the water but when he left the thermal he was in sinking air and did not have the altitude to get back to the water. A kiteloop would of taken him farther from the water. IMO



Dear Wayne,

As I first saw Eric's movie, I got really scared and the same feeling do I

live now, when I watch it again. I admit that my impression was that the

only thing Eric controlled was himself, and that the rest was pure luck.

It is a pleasant surprise and a joy to find out from you now, that Eric's

flight was controlled. :)

Still, my scare was so big, that it made me do the

movie that is in the beginning of the topic, and which determins me to:

1) avoid such strong ascendent currents

2) practice the techniques developed thanks to snowkite, control over the

flight and landing with kiteloop.

I dare to advise the others to do the same, even before they are taught to glide !!!.

Thanks for your movies, I enjoyed watching them. You have indeed some
wonderfull places. How many months per year do you get snow?
vlad


Last edited by kite4surf on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced technic to bail out in air loft .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:39 pm
Posts: 45
Billy B. wrote:


I think whats really happening is your witnessing someone who has discovered Late loops and using the kite while up high after flying off a hill, try and convince others how to use them based on one set of consistant conditions, and just their personal experance. While others are sharing info based on collective knowledge based on their experance and the ideas of others doing similair stuff.

The video of Chasta is like 4 or 5 years old, I have never heard Chasta say, Use kite loops to help yourself out of updrafts if you are getting lofted. And he should have 4 or 5 more years of good solid experance in using the kite to fly then many, he is also a paragliding pilot. He and Alex Peterson are the guys I learned to fly from, We have all talked about our worst flights, our bail out plans and how to deal with any situation we could imagine while in the air.

I think everyone who has the skills nessaecery understands how to make your landings as soft as possible by using loops. Heres a video from 3 maybe 4 or so years ago where we talk about throwing multiple loops, and the saftey needed while flying with the kite. No where in the vid is the topic of using kiteloops when things go wrong covered cuz its just not a good technigue or advise except while penitrating through the wind and having the distance to loop and swing with out hitting the ground. Just like in the side hill flight into a open pit like the orginal video shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dCQEqlylg

If there was some terrain that cuased the lift to have some variable current then it would create some turbulance, but that nice smooth hill makes nice smooth wind to use across the hill then nice smooth wind to use as he flys out into the pit. On that same type of hill I would be so stoked on how nice I bet that wind is.

BB



Of course I have discovered the late kiteloop, but not now ( see min 0.45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIDnV8fit_E )

and of course it's not just about the personal experience, I have lived

along the Fabio, Chasta, Andrea, Boulgakow ,Jahnolimit and Jerome Josserand movies ( which

among others teach us to glide turned with the face to the direction where you're flying :) )

Even though in the movie I state that the strong ascendent curents must be avoided, I do consider
that controlling / mastering the landings with kiteloop gives you more chances to avoid the
accidents, like Malik's crash on minute 1.02 (from my movie) . But only an experimented
kiter can decide whether to loop the kite, as aircatcher correctly stated. The rest has to respect the
conclusions of my movie.

I haven't spoken of "using kiteloops when things go wrong " because the situations are different
and because the kiter who masters this technique will decide whether he should apply it or not.

My movie has some peisagistic messages, besides the written ones, as you correctly
noticed, "nice smooth hill". It does point to the ideal snowkite scenario, but you should take into consideration that the wind is not always that smooth.
Take a look at this:



. The speaker talks about the conditions in which the Romanian national snowkite race contest was held.(and the ranking). I let you know this because I have seen that you enjoy the racing. :)
Vlad
.


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