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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:44 am 
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[quote]I like the idea that some companies are still challenging the push to release concept. I think it is sad to see that there are people who blindly accept the push to release concept without challenging the assumptions behind it. It is even sadder to see people criticise a new concept without trying it first. In general, the kitesurf scene really sucks at accepting any forms of change. Take SLEs for example, they were criticised repeatedly, until cabrinha pushed them hard and made them popular. Take the Delta kite, it was criticised repeatedly, until all the other brands copied it because it works. I can understand that some people don't want to try anything new, but why criticise new things without any background.

/Marc[/quote]

I agree and like your comment! I also like the idea of innovating to get away from patent fee's. I understand the role of what patents do, but most of the time it's just a huge waste of time and energy. Lawyers benefit while businesses and customers suffer!


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:45 am 
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I usually don't join these type of discussions... but I can't help myself.

How can you say that pull is better than push? The above people mentioned places where pull would not work at all NOT AT ALL. If you mess up some trick, go flying into the slack lines, just try and release with a pull.

The other one is when riding unhooked, you reach up to pull the chicken loop down and pull the release instead.

So in these situations you would not want a pull.

There may be arguments to what is more natural and all that but I want a release that will WORK, even if I have to use some muscles. I have never had a problem with push releases and I feel they are very natural.

I also find it funny that in your two examples of how a push release would not work you didn't even have one. At least use an example where you tried to release and it did not release. Like pulling on slack lines to release.


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:12 am 
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I vote for push and I also vote for the same type across all companies. I would not have two bars with two different mechanisms, not unless I want to play Russian roulette while being dragged. :(


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:05 am 
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Location: Kite Shop owner in Bali
Correct if lines are slack a pull release will not work very well as need tension on the line to release...
But if lines are slack you should not have to pull the release but just get out of the chicken loop...
I see that most accident are of people being dragged by a kite on beach or in the water!
In that case is MY opinion that the pull system is more effective...

Said that most of the companies are going toward a push release so that's mean that most of the people prefer like that!
I can't really see a twist system been better but time will tell.
Bye Jankie


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:09 am 
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Ned Divine wrote:
I vote for push and I also vote for the same type across all companies. I would not have two bars with two different mechanisms, not unless I want to play Russian roulette while being dragged. :(

It's pretty easy to adapt ... until recently, I had 2 (maybe 3) different types of releases on my various kites - push, pin pull and side of CL. Although I'd spent a lot of time with the Cab's, when I got into an emergency with the pin pull system, I released it without even stopping to think about how to do it. I do a few "practices" at the start of sessions though, just to make sure.

That said ... I'd like to change all my safeties to the same :D I'm not paying $500 for a bar just to get a CL though :o


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:25 am 
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rightguard wrote:
I usually don't join these type of discussions... but I can't help myself.

How can you say that pull is better than push? The above people mentioned places where pull would not work at all NOT AT ALL. If you mess up some trick, go flying into the slack lines, just try and release with a pull.

The other one is when riding unhooked, you reach up to pull the chicken loop down and pull the release instead.

So in these situations you would not want a pull.

There may be arguments to what is more natural and all that but I want a release that will WORK, even if I have to use some muscles. I have never had a problem with push releases and I feel they are very natural.

I also find it funny that in your two examples of how a push release would not work you didn't even have one. At least use an example where you tried to release and it did not release. Like pulling on slack lines to release.


If you try an f-one release which is a pull release, you will see that it will release fine even with slack lines. You pull away from the loop which applies tension between the harness hook and the loop. So no problems with slack lines.

If you again look at the f-one loop, even if you are sailing unhooked and reach up and hold onto the chickenloop you will not release. The only way you would release is if you grabbed onto the release loop itself, instead of the chickenloop.

I am not saying that the f-one loop is good, just as an example of a pull release which doesn't have the issues which everybody uses to support push releases.

By the way there is one argument for using push releases and that is the slack line argument. The argument for using pull releases is the being pulled on your stomach argument. Personally, I don't understand why the argument about slack lines is so popular. There is an easy way out of this situation.. Ie it is easy to unhook the loop when the lines are slack. In the other case, being pulled on your stomach with a kite at full power and a release that won't release seems to be a much more serious issue...????

/Marc


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:17 am 
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But that's a pin release Mike - you gotta grab the little loop and pull on that ... assuming that in a panic you can grab enough of the loop to get a good yank, they were notorious for high release loads :( I've had bad experiences with them - if it wasn't for the sudden fear-initiated adrenaline-boost when the first tug didn't release the kite ... things could have been bad :o


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:54 am 
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Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
Ha!

We have the system that will beat all!

A mate of mine came up with this fool proof system but has hit a brick wall! Developement is at a stalemate.

A.R.S.E. or if sold in the US, A.S.S. Automatic Rectal Safety Eject or in the US, Anal Safety System.

It is basically a butt plug and when you shit your self, your arse (ass) clitches and ejects the safety, to either a 5 line or 4 line system. We have problems with test pilots so the system has hit a brick wall at this stage. We just can't get any one to test it. With this system, no one has to use any hands, no push nor no pull and even no twist, its hands free. How good would that be!

If we get some one to test it, we will let you know, we're excited about it but after 2 years now, we are struggling.

We will keep at it and we will keep you posted!

cheers,

Robbie


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:15 pm 
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come on Robbie, that's below your level.

Is the f-one release usable with either hand within parts of a second?


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 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Toby wrote:

Is the f-one release usable with either hand within parts of a second?


Hi Toby,

No, if you read my initial post, I say that I would like chickenloop with two pull releases, one on each side of the loop. And as I mentioned, I don't think the F-one release is "good", I just used it as an example of a pull release which works even if the lines are slack.

In general, the "accessible from two sides argument" is the only argument in favour of the push release that I really accept. Ordinary pull releases are one sided which is bad.

For people who ride hooked in all the time (90%) a one sided release is not such an issue if you remember to hook in the same way each time. However, sometimes you do hook in opposite to your normal direction, and here a double sided release would be good.

I once made some preliminary designs of a chickenloop with two releases, one on each side of the loop. The main advantage was that no matter which way you hooked in, you could release from either the left or the right side of the loop. You could also release with the lines slack or tensioned since you pulled perpendicular to the lines. Furthermore, if you were unlucky enough to get sand in the loop and the one release was jammed, you would get a second chance with the other release. In all current releases, you only have a single release. If your chickenloop for some reason gets jammed, you are in for a wild ride...

I have to see if I can find some of my old drawings.

As mentioned, I am not saying the old pull releases were good, I am just saying that the current trend to only support development of push releases is wrong. Push releases have a fatal flaw which is that it is difficult to release them if you are being pulled by your kite at high speed along the ground or even possibly through the water.

By the way, I should mention that I have been involved in both Ozone, Fone and Flysurfer, so I have experiences with both pull and push releases. Of all the releases I have used, my personal favorite is the old Flysurfer pin release with the big red ball you could pull on. This release was impossible to jam with sand, was very easy to grab and pull even with heavy gloves on, you could release with slack lines and you never every released it accidentally. The problems with it were that it was a pain to assemble if you did release, it was necessary to activate once in a while so that the parts didn't get stiff over time and it was only accessible from one side.

/Marc


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