*


All times are UTC + 1 hour



Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:53 am 
Offline
Frequent Poster

Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:44 am
Posts: 268
Once I fell over my harness in shalow waters and could not push the damn eject away (did it after 5m and a burned wrist), so there is circunstances I believe it applies. i would not buy though.
:nono:


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:50 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1428
Location: PASA Level III Instructor FL- OBX - MI - the world
I think this new QR from Core looks quite good. Of course it's hard to say for certain until tested under a variety of circumstances (which I am sure they are doing)...but it's not valid to say that "it's not good" if you've never tried it. Core makes really nice products, excelllent quality and engineering, and this bar was not developed on a whim or some "copy-cat" of another safety device. So firstly I think people should be open-minded and give it a chance/test it.

As far as the arguement of one system being more "intutitive" than another. My observation in over 10 years of kiting and over 500 lessons is that the strongest common instinct is to "hold on for dear life" (to the bar) when things go bad. That is the intitial response anyway. In almost every case I can think of there is never enough time/or quick enough reaction to deploy a QR on the initial lofting/dragging. It is usually after the initial "jolt", "teabagging" or few seconds of dragging that the rider eventually engages his QR skills.

I tell my students that the QR device should be renamed and considered to be the "second chance at survival" device. In a lot of cases the "second chance" comes after an initial "out of control" and unanticipated situation when the kite depowers momentarily and that's your big chance. Of course, sometimes the QR is handy in more controlled situations as well, for example if you are getting too close to the beach, or a hazard, or on the beach being pulled but still under control and the QR can be deployed with a lot of control and anticipation.

Unintended releases can be a big problem too, especially in landkiting/snowkiting conditions. Also, some QR's require too much effort to activate under load, and some require load to work at all as well. So that's a consideration too. The ease of reconnecting is important, but not the primary concern. In most emergency situations it's better to self rescue to the beach and make sure your lines are sorted, reset your QR, and relaunch if appropriate.

Getting back to the subject of "intuition". There is nothing intuitive about any of the QR's produced to date, and neither with this new Core device. The importance of recognizing and accepting this brings us to the next vital issue and that is "training". Assuming the device works when activated - easily, with one hand, under high load, under no load - then a person can be "conditioned" to act with the proper response. That's basically why they put pilots in flight simulators - to break them of their instinctual responses and develop a different and often unnatural response to an emergency.

I do not see how a twisting mechanism will work any less efffectively than a "push" or "pull" system, as long as the individual has adapted his response thru training himself to grab and twist. I did not see an kicking and screaming when they went from the old "rip chord" design to the more common "push out" designs. It's a simple adaptation IMO. All of the decent quality mechanisms currently available require some manual dexterity...except for the ones that deploy accidently which is no good anyway. No matter which style they end up with I always tell my student that, after my lessons with them, I want them to go out in increasingly challenging conditions and deploy their safety and do a complete packdown every time they go out for the first 10 sessions. This way they might see the different challenges they will encounter when the real shit hits the fan.

Getting dragged while underwater can be very very disconcerting, espicially when any "sushi rolling" is involved, and the ease of release is crucial...but whether a push, pull, or twist device, the training still needs to be there more than anything else. Ben Wilson wrote about this in a magazne article a year or 2 ago and he said that he practically forgot everything he was supposed to do while being pinned under water by waves - "the closest I've come to drowning" is pretty much what I remember him writing. So even the most experienced riders can get thrown off in a "survival" situation. When you're head is underwater your mind/body's instincts kick in and often over-ride any normal rationale - unless you have been highly trained to do what's necessary. That's not the case for most of us.

I am currently using a Core ESP bar and have been very happy with it. I'm very eager to see the new Core bar. I see that they have simplified the "mini-fifth" line (eliminating the former third piece of cord) and they rotated the double depower line 90 degrees, so that it passes thru the bar with less spacing between you fingers (more comfortable riding one handed) and the depower system looks really clean and simple. The optional stopper ball device looks good too. As mentioned before I like to test things before giving a 100% thumbs up, but it all appears well designed from the manual I read.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:34 pm 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:37 pm
Posts: 86
Toby wrote:
The problem with accidental releases (specially at snowkiting) is given with a push away release. With a rotation release (releases at 46° twist) this is less likely to happen.


I can second that. Push away and snowkite don't mix well. Had 3 accidental releases in one week with the Airush bar, no fun in strong wind :nono:. Would trade for a rotation release anytime.

But for the liquid :lol: water kiteboarding I'm not sure.. I'm currently too used to push release, but find it interesting and will try to check it out if I get the chance.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:10 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:50 pm
Posts: 817
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
Toby wrote:
come on Robbie, that's below your level.

Is the f-one release usable with either hand within parts of a second?


... not funny ey, it was ment to be! :o

I surpose I shouldn't be joking around with a safety subject, fair enough, inappropriate! :oops:


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:26 pm 
Offline
Rare Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:11 am
Posts: 47
Location: Hua Hin, Thailand
twisting not intuitive - will not work

but nice bar otherwise


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:24 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster

Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:48 pm
Posts: 1230
How can a "twist" action release be any less intuitive than a "push" action release ?

Like others have posted... both have pro's and con's. I think you have to pick one the works right for you.

I'd use a twisting type release no problem... I think I'm more likely to get dragged to my death rather than lofted so a twisting action might be better for me.

That said I'm even more likely to die crossing the street.


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:13 pm 
Offline
Rare Poster

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:08 pm
Posts: 47
I want to start by saying that there is no perfect safety system that will prevent all accidents.

Most importantly with any safety system is that the user train with it. There is no instict whether it is push, pull, twist, click, etc. The "instinct" is a trained psychomotor skill that requires repeated training evolutions to develope a reflex like reaction. Most accidents I have seen occur in launching and landing and are primarily from failure to rig properly or not releasing the bar. I have never pulled the release in an emergency, but have released the bar on a few occasions. Letting go of the bar is a learned skill from many hours of flying. I have seen on multiple occassions in lauches gone bad multiple people screaming at the person to let go of the bar and most flyers don't respond even to that very quickly. Why? Most likely lack of mental preparation for emergency scenarios and inexperience. Back to the old saying practice makes perfect. Even in the military when flying an aircraft, many hours are spent training on emergency scenarios and practicing pulling the eject or pushing the right buttons to put an engine fire out.

I have been flying Core products for 2 years and love them. I would like to say that the twist system is a welcome change for me as the push release has been accidentally released about 6 times when jumping and when wiping out in a wave. I think having a system that releases under load or no load and that is less likely to be bump released will be a huge improvement. I have not used the new bar yet, but it looks awsome and there are all the changes I had hoped for in a new bar from core...such as....no 5th line, front to back depower line for easier turning and one hand flying, above the bar cleat for depower, better chicken stick, and now what looks like to me a system that won't accidentally release if you bump it. I don't expect it to be perfect, but it looks like a lot of improvement.

I think, while arguing about whether push or pull is better we might have failed to realize that this release process is a learned skill that requires practice and should be performed on and off the water to become comfortable and familiar with releasing and to become familiar with what your kite is going to do after being released so you are prepared for that as well.

I am looking forward to this bar. Hats off to Core for thinking outside the box. From my experience with Core they produce an awsome product and have provided awsome customer service to me here in the US. they have gone as far as to make me a custom chicken loop for free because of an issue I had with my previous loop. The people who work in there office in Germany, Jochen and Philip are amazingly awsome at running a top business with excellent customer service and have been more efficient at getting product to me in the US than companies in the US. I will continue to order direct from Germany because of the type of people I am accustomed to dealing with. This is a top notch company and I think people should try the system before formulating an opinion. Too many times people miss someting special because they formulate an opinion with out trying someting first.

Good winds to all!


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:41 pm 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 3912
Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
Love the video and really like the look of the bar too bad it was in German. I also really like the idea of the CL but like everybody said: "every company has been using the Push Away system" it will be hard to convert every body to the twist CL. Maybe in the future after more testes have been made. We are also working on our new EPIC Chicken Loop & Safety Leash system for 2012 and NO it is not a Twist off...


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:29 am 
Offline
Medium Poster

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:37 pm
Posts: 86
Dimitri M wrote:
Love the video and really like the look of the bar too bad it was in German. I also really like the idea of the CL but like everybody said: "every company has been using the Push Away system" it will be hard to convert every body to the twist CL. Maybe in the future after more testes have been made. We are also working on our new EPIC Chicken Loop & Safety Leash system for 2012 and NO it is not a Twist off...


Hello Dimitri, I've learned to kite in schools using North push-away and F-One, my first kite was Slingshot REV2 with a pull style safety and now I own North with push-away and Airush with push-away. All in all, two transitions, always without problems... I do practice/check release mechanism each time before riding.
I'll reserve my opinion on the new Core bar release before I try it out :-).


Top
Profile
 Post subject: Re: New Revolutionary Quick Release?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:31 am 
Offline
Very Frequent Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:00 am
Posts: 28976
Location: World (KF Admin)
jb8431: yes, training and preparing for an emergency is the most important.
Therefore it is very important to have instructions for beginners dealing a LOT with releasing.
We all need to train it.

Therefore it is important to have the same type of release for all bars. While we could discuss if the push away and twist can be trained as one movement, the pull release are a complete different movement. Only few companies still use them (if money and costs are the reason, they should be reminded, they play with our lives).

Also important, the SAME kook proof connections of ALL companies. As you mentioned, the most problems occur with lines connected incorrect. That does NOT cost the companies more money!
Few companies need to adjust to the system the majority already uses. Again, companies, we are talking about some people's life here!


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic
 [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], CaptainArgh, Comar, COOP, Google [Bot], IWB2, jsquid, William Munney, Yahoo [Bot] and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group