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Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

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POACHER
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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby POACHER » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:56 pm

JBD wrote:Poacher you never know maybe the boater is one of the duck hunters I had my run in with. I know he has been on a war path against kiters since my run in with him.

RichardM you can't compare access threats in the Great Lakes to California. They are completely different animals. Unlike Cali the Great Lakes do not have the lifeguard Gestapo watching every move they make. Access there is much more stable there than here. Authorities deal with crossover issues everyday and never threaten access they simply stress that everybody needs to share.

Poacher what lake are you riding on? I really miss the kiting vibe on the Great Lakes.
JBD - I'm actually a duck hunter too. :lol: I know that it's annoying to share the spots with fishermen,(I'm one of those as well...) pleasure boaters and kayakers/canoes, but it's not that difficult. Common sense is the key, and I think MANY people just lack that programming.

Yeah the Great Lakes are pretty desolate and not near what Californistan is reg wise. Thank God. I ride Superior mostly and Michigan.
My douche bag encounter was on a small inland lake in Wisconsin. (that shall remain nameless! :wink: )

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby Kamikuza » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Like BMW & Mercedes drivers, I bet Boat Guy figured cos his toys cost more, he gets a bigger slice of the public area to use.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby jkrug » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:48 pm

richardm's logic and argument are seriously flawed. first off, there is a HUGE difference between a warning and a threat. warning people that where they're at, and/or what they're doing, may result in harm is completely different than telling them you are going to intentionally do them harm (i.e., a threat). if i setup my kite for a self-launch, and subsequently some beach-goer comes and sets up shop in a potentially harmful area relative to my launch, it's not a threat to ask them politely to move; it's actually being considerate.

if i were to put a beach chair down in the middle of a highway to have some lunch, is it a threat if someone tells me i should move, or a warning? but richardm would say: pedestrians always have the right of way, so why should i move?! a ridiculous analogy perhaps, but no less so than richardm's analogy to rape.

if there is a rule/law that states poacher could not kite there, then poacher was wrong. but as far as the story goes, there is not such a rule/law, and therefore poacher's actions make perfect sense. perhaps richardm needs some quiet time to (re)think .

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby POACHER » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:18 pm

Now I don't intend for this thread to be a "gang up on Richard M" thing. I understand his viewpoints as well. We just disagree on the superior right of use and how I handled the situation. Whatever. I'm sure it's much different in CA than where I'm at. I actually give him credit if he is willing to leave every situation as to not interfere with any beach user. Very noble. I however, am going to continue to try and handle each encounter accordingly as politely and earnestly as possible.

This sport needs space, and there are a lot of humans fighting for the same space. With a little common sense I think most conflicts can be avoided.

To be honest, the guy (boater) was probably just envious. 4 guys out riding, laughing, enjoying the day and a cold beer............while his wife and kids are bitching incessantly about being cold or wanting ice cream. The dude probably just wanted a moment away from the harpies, have a beer and hang out. 8)

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby waynepjh » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:42 pm

superstoke wrote:
waynepjh wrote:Not many people like to be asked to move they may have planned to go to that exact spot well in advance and then show up and are asked to move. That would piss off a lot of people. Most nice people would have no problem moving. This guy could of gotten really mad and told the rangers or whoever else that you asked him to move. Rangers don't like that very much. That is the start of a conflict which could close that area to kiting. Tread lightly! If it was me I would have no problem moving but I am a kiter and understand. Good luck!
This is exactly the sissy attitude I'm talking about. It's like we are the ones that come up with the idea of bans. We shouldn't be the ones putting the idea on the table.

Its not about sissy attitude its about respect! Superstoke I think you need to get out more so maybe some of your posts might be positive.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby Ned Divine » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:45 pm

POACHER wrote:Now I don't intend for this thread to be a "gang up on Richard M" thing. I understand his viewpoints as well. We just disagree on the superior right of use and how I handled the situation. Whatever. I'm sure it's much different in CA than where I'm at. I actually give him credit if he is willing to leave every situation as to not interfere with any beach user. Very noble. I however, am going to continue to try and handle each encounter accordingly as politely and earnestly as possible.

This sport needs space, and there are a lot of humans fighting for the same space. With a little common sense I think most conflicts can be avoided.

To be honest, the guy (boater) was probably just envious. 4 guys out riding, laughing, enjoying the day and a cold beer............while his wife and kids are bitching incessantly about being cold or wanting ice cream. The dude probably just wanted a moment away from the harpies, have a beer and hang out. 8)
The politeness exhibited in this post proves that the boater was really at fault.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby ChickenTikka » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:20 pm

This reminds me of my German friend giving me a safety lecture after his son crashed his kite into me. I can understand why this guy didn't think you were trying to help him, but that you were really out just to annoy him. I believe your good intentions but I would not expect someone to take them well.

Human nature is to get territorial and defensive in these situations. It goes beyond any rational impulse.

My policy is to just avoid talking to strangers for that reason.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby Bitt » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:32 pm

The guy is an ah and treating him like that is probably fine in 95% of the cases.

However, RichardMs point is that sometimes you run into a 5% case. That's when a ranger comes along and asks what's going on. Now clearly (in my opinion), there is a huge difference between the following answers from the ah:
1. He asked me to move because he wanted to kite here <insert rant about I have just as much right etc>.
2. He asked me to move because it could be dangerous for me to be too close to these guys while they kite, but <again insert rant>

Next:
a) It could be a cool easy going ranger that would try to convince the boater to move, or fall back to
b) Sorry guys, the guy is an ah, but he has as much right to be here, so you'll have to wait
c) A better-safe-than-sorry ranger that says, sorry guys, other people use this area, and if kiting can be dangerous to others, you're not allowed to kite here. At all. (Even if it's empty as other people could be scared away if you are here first)

Because of c) you really don't want to give him the option of answering 2.

Quite a few of the assholes will actually contact the authorities with a complaint (especially if he can use 2) and then c) is even more likely. RichardMs point is that you just can't risk that you hit one of those 5% because then you have a ban on your hands. Unfair as hell, yes, but life is unfair. My guess is that RichardM has run into the 5% case (maybe more than once).

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby RichardM » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:14 am

Ned Divine wrote:We use 200m of a 5km beach here. Man comes as a client in my office, sees a kiting photo and says - first thing - we kiters are all bastards for kiting outside our designated area (happens with learners or when the wind drops) and putting swimmers at risk. I treat him mildly because of the private nature of my job.
A few days later I nearly jump over a swimmer swimming in our designated, buoy-marked area. As I turn away from him, I hear his voice: "hey, Vangelis, it's me, Jimmy!!!" ... :lol: :angryfire:

PS This man RichardM clearly wants to have the last word on the argument, hence the repetitions in increasingly more words. Still I agree with Poacher though! I think he did the right thing. I also tell people kindly that being around where people kite - provided they can easily avoid being exactly there - can be risky. When I do that with a smile and consideration it is 99% appreciated. If I threatened sexual abuse of their family members I am sure that the port police would be called to the spot in no time.
1. Perhaps you should read a little more carefully. What you describe doing is NOT the situation under discussion.

Do you think it would be “99% appreciated” if you went up to someone and told them that if they didn’t move out of your way, you would deliberately endanger them because they were where you wanted to kite? This is the situation being discussed.

2. “...I am sure that the port police would be called to the spot in no time.” But they would have no reason to ban KITING !

On the other hand, if they get called because non-kiters allege being ENDANGERED by KITING activity, they WOULD have a basis to ban kiting.
loco4viento wrote:WOW! Richard M, I was impressed by your proposed light wind test course with PMU a while back, but I think you have outdone yourself with this one. Way to go!....
You have me confused with someone else. I don’t respond to PMU.
Antigrav wrote:@ Poacher, seems to me like you did everything right, and no I can't see any threat in your words either

@RichardM, superior right of use?? If everyone has equal right to enjoy the lakes why should a boat have 'superior right of use' to a kiter? If you hate kiters so much why don't you take up a different sport?

Please don't assume that kiting in the US is the same as everywhere else, it's not, some of us actually enjoy it :thumb:
After you learn how to read, take a look at #10 in my previous post for my reason “why should a boat have 'superior right of use' to a kiter?” Or get a program that reads text and have someone install it for you.
crash&burn wrote:so my buddies and I are playing a pickup game of baseball in a park. We are not in a baseball diamond but just a grass field in a park. In the middle of the 6 inning a family comes down and setts up a picnic right in the infield. I walk up to the mother and say" excuse me, we are playing baseball right here and you may be in danger of a ball hitting you or your family"
according to RIchard M ( the official bore your ass off the thread lawyer of kiteforum) this is a threat and I am stepping on their Superior use. what the f-ck, it is called common courtesy which I guess in this day in age is replaced with selfishness.
Your screen name evidently is your way of explaining the quality of your example.
jkrug wrote:richardm's logic and argument are seriously flawed. first off, there is a HUGE difference between a warning and a threat. warning people that where they're at, and/or what they're doing, may result in harm is completely different than1. 1. telling them you are going to intentionally do them harm (i.e., a threat). if i setup my kite for a self-launch, and subsequently some beach-goer comes and sets up shop in a potentially harmful area relative to my launch, 2. it's not a threat to ask them politely to move; it's actually being considerate.

if i were to put a beach chair down in the middle of a highway to have some lunch, is it a threat if someone tells me i should move, or a warning? but richardm would say: pedestrians always have the right of way, so why should i move?! a ridiculous analogy perhaps, 3. but no less so than richardm's analogy to rape.

if there is a rule/law that states poacher could not kite there, then poacher was wrong. but as far as the story goes, there is not such a rule/law, and therefore poacher's actions make perfect sense. perhaps richardm needs some quiet time to (re)think .
1. The definition of “Harm” INCLUDES endangering them and/or making them THINK they are in danger (whether done intentionally or not). Obviously, therefore telling someone that if they don’t move then “you are going to intentionally” endanger them =do them harm is a threat.

Saying “move or I might knife you” rather than “move or I’ll knife you” doesn’t make it not a threat. At best, it’s just a LESSER threat.

2. Absolutely correct. But when you politely say you’ll endanger them if they don’t move, you are obviously threatening them.

3. WTF is the matter with you? Is it that you just read some other stoned poster’s comments and assume they’re true? Show me where I alleged that any action is analogous to rape and I’ll pay you $100.

Otherwise, perhaps you should use some of your quiet time to actually read my posts before you try to state what they say.

4. While on the subject of analogies, I hope you realize that the main reason your highway analogy is “ridiculous” is because there exist rather definitive laws giving the vehicles a somewhat superior right to highway use than a drunk with a beach chair. If kiters had this type of established right, this thread wouldn’t exist !!

FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAD TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING THIS THE FIRST FEW TIMES,
please concentrate hard enough to grasp the differences between:

1. Explaining to a non-kiter that their actions may be putting them in danger from OTHER kiters –NOT YOU.

This is acceptable if necessary but it would be BETTER if you got them to correct their behavior for some other reason rather than fear of their being injured.

2. Politely asking them to move because YOU need space and with NO indication that you will do anything that might endanger them if they don’t move. There is nothing wrong with this if not done to the point where you disturb them.

Needless to say, I maintain that if they don’t move, you shouldn’t kite. However, if you did kite (and thereby endanger them whether they knew it or not), at least you didn’t also THREATEN them with the exact best reason for a ban.

3. Politely asking them to move and explaining that if they don’t, then YOU will DELIBERATELY do something that will endanger them. Especially bad. Besides THREATENING them, you’re EMPHASIZING to them the exact best reason for a ban and since they’re already peeved, they are more likely to use it against kiters at the first opportunity.

And I hope everyone realizes that IF they should be injured AFTER being THREATENED, the kiter responsible will likely be burnt crispy toast as far as the subsequent legal actions go and it’s even possible to end up as the defendant in a criminal proceeding charged with serious things like assault with a deadly weapon, mayhem etc. It probably wouldn’t be real helpful as far as access for other kiters is concerned either.

4. And note that in the case at hand, the threat was to endanger them REPEATEDLY by kiting around them.

5. Politely asking them to move and explaining that if they don’t, then you’ll shoot them and rape their dog as punishment for their being in your way. As I uselessly pointed out before, this type of threat is BETTER from an access point of view than the threats in #3&4 because after they lock you up for making terroristic threats and conspiracy to commit animal abuse, there’s no reason to ban other kiters.

Richard M.
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Last edited by RichardM on Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby rightguard » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:51 am

Richard, you sure take a simple thread to a new level of HATE. I too can capitalize. You are suggesting we use CIVILITY while talking to people on the beach but then you BERATE the people here online. That is the main reason no one will listen to the words that are coming out of your mouth.


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