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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:07 am 
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Yeah, but just saying the word One Design, and making a nod to fleet support is a HUGE step. One design fleets don't form without it. I think this is the closest for the criteria.

What do you think the performance difference would be between the Sector 60 and the 70 cm series of raceboards. 50% or 90%? and if they can drive the price down under 1000$ i think we could be in business. If there's something that would be mass available on the same price point in the 70 cm range I'd be open to it...


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:27 am 
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true, to be a real one design class you would need to match up a kite as well. but the locked design for 2 years means a lot. check the monaro also from airush it gets updated every 6 months! if you wanted leading edge board and not a sponsored rider thats going to set you back big time just to keep up.

Toomuch, there is a difference between a pro race board and the sector, sure the pro board will get going in lighter wind and rail upwind higher & faster. exactly how much? for a pro its worth the difference, for the weekend rider its not enough to make a difference.

Another angle to consider. is that your average rider will be able to get the most out of a sector much quicker than if they were on a pro race board. Pro riders spend many hours of board time to tweak their skills to squeeze out the most from their boards and get that extra 1%. the sector is just about plug and play your are flying up wind and gybing in an afternoon. an average rider on a sector will beat an average rider on a pro board hands down.

where i ride we have a lot of very happy people riding and racing sectors. the guys that invested in pro race boards dont always win the races and dont always have smiles on their faces.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:48 am 
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naishdude wrote:
I am sure if you give the sector to somebody with no experience with raceboards, to take part in a race, he might be finishing on the sector, give him the high end raceboards he might not finish..
TME is trying to get people into racing in as far as I understood a kind of one design class racing..
You do not put people in a Formula one race car before they had their experiences in less high tech cars, that is my point of view
Cheers
Frank .L


Hmm, well I don;t think so. I think it is easier to ride a wider board flat. The car analogy does not work..the premise for that argument is flawed in that it is easier to ride a big board flat. :-)

The whole one design thing, over two year...are you sure it is not because the requirement now is that for a board to able to participate on the race circuit (?) it has to be a production board, and they need to make about 50 or so of them?

I think it is too early in the design process to stop the continued development. Oh well. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:55 am 
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jaysen5 wrote:

Toomuch, there is a difference between a pro race board and the sector, sure the pro board will get going in lighter wind and rail upwind higher & faster. exactly how much? for a pro its worth the difference, for the weekend rider its not enough to make a difference.


Unless you set up casual races. Then it might be.

Quote:
Another angle to consider. is that your average rider will be able to get the most out of a sector much quicker than if they were on a pro race board. Pro riders spend many hours of board time to tweak their skills to squeeze out the most from their boards and get that extra 1%. the sector is just about plug and play your are flying up wind and gybing in an afternoon. an average rider on a sector will beat an average rider on a pro board hands down.


I think this is a tendentious statement. I think you need to back up that one. I am by far not a pro, but I think it is easier for someone to learn ride the fins / board flat on a bigger board.

The smaller boards are more casual, and easier to just jump on, but if the only reason you should get a small board is that you get all the board has to offer sooner I think I'd recommend the board a person has more fun with for longer. Obviously we are all different, and if your goal is to just cruice back and forth with good light wind performance, than sure get a small board, but if your goal is to have casual or even small races, then get a big board. Before someone else does...

Everything else the same, a big board will win. :-)

where i ride we have a lot of very happy people riding and racing sectors. the guys that invested in pro race boards dont always win the races and dont always have smiles on their faces.[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:58 am 
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I had the North 2010 fun board to learn basics on. Here is a great option, not winning races now but it was, now his wider longer board is. super durable super friendly and only 900 US. I have one that I just love. I have ridden the wider boards and will probably go to the production 2012 North board next. With my Aguera I can ride in as little as 6-7 knots with a large light wind kite, It machs up wind, down wind and on broad it is so fast!

Some of my friends have them and we race around. it is a blast some of my friends have the 59 and we are evenly matched. The 64 and 69 will toast us though, same skills needed on them all you can hope from each one and notice a differnce with out changing your technique much.

Check them out!

http://alexaguera.com/course-racing-kit ... with-fins/


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:16 am 
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tautologies wrote:
jaysen5 wrote:

Toomuch, there is a difference between a pro race board and the sector, sure the pro board will get going in lighter wind and rail upwind higher & faster. exactly how much? for a pro its worth the difference, for the weekend rider its not enough to make a difference.


Unless you set up casual races. Then it might be.

Quote:
Another angle to consider. is that your average rider will be able to get the most out of a sector much quicker than if they were on a pro race board. Pro riders spend many hours of board time to tweak their skills to squeeze out the most from their boards and get that extra 1%. the sector is just about plug and play your are flying up wind and gybing in an afternoon. an average rider on a sector will beat an average rider on a pro board hands down.


I think this is a tendentious statement. I think you need to back up that one. I am by far not a pro, but I think it is easier for someone to learn ride the fins / board flat on a bigger board.

The smaller boards are more casual, and easier to just jump on, but if the only reason you should get a small board is that you get all the board has to offer sooner I think I'd recommend the board a person has more fun with for longer. Obviously we are all different, and if your goal is to just cruice back and forth with good light wind performance, than sure get a small board, but if your goal is to have casual or even small races, then get a big board. Before someone else does...

Everything else the same, a big board will win. :-)

where i ride we have a lot of very happy people riding and racing sectors. the guys that invested in pro race boards dont always win the races and dont always have smiles on their faces.
[/quote]

most of the people riding in my spot have been riding for 5 seasons or less. they are not crazy freestylers - just regular kites. we ride in moderate to strong conditions. rarely do we race in sub 12 knots.

those that chose sectors picked up riding big finned race boards much faster than those that went to more pro orientated boards. the guys are on the pro boards have spent ages in the water with a much slower learning curve. two riders of the same experience level 6 months into riding wide body big fin directionals, the sector rider was winning the races. no doubt the rider on the pro board should be winning the races in a years time. has he/she had fun getting to that position? will the sector rider jump on a new pro board in a years time and beat the guy who started off on the pro board?

I dont think everything else being the same a pro board will win. in our races the guys on the pro boards get worked in the chop, have a hard time gybing them and then have a hard time controlling them on the down wind leg, by the time they are 1/2 way through a race their back leg is burning they are fatigued and can no longer keep up the pace. they are much harder boards to ride and get the most from. (newer designs may have changed in this respect.) in super light sub 10 knots they certainly have an advantage.

as a starting point for those that want to get into casual racing and be competitive (i would consider most regional races as casual) . the sector is a great choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:21 am 
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jaysen5 wrote:
true, to be a real one design class you would need to match up a kite as well. but the locked design for 2 years means a lot. check the monaro also from airush it gets updated every 6 months! if you wanted leading edge board and not a sponsored rider thats going to set you back big time just to keep up.

Toomuch, there is a difference between a pro race board and the sector, sure the pro board will get going in lighter wind and rail upwind higher & faster. exactly how much? for a pro its worth the difference, for the weekend rider its not enough to make a difference.

Another angle to consider. is that your average rider will be able to get the most out of a sector much quicker than if they were on a pro race board. Pro riders spend many hours of board time to tweak their skills to squeeze out the most from their boards and get that extra 1%. the sector is just about plug and play your are flying up wind and gybing in an afternoon. an average rider on a sector will beat an average rider on a pro board hands down.

where i ride we have a lot of very happy people riding and racing sectors. the guys that invested in pro race boards dont always win the races and dont always have smiles on their faces.

jaysen5, you have put it down, in a better English than I did, you hit it spot on,
thx
Frank


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:24 am 
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jaysen5 wrote:

most of the people riding in my spot have been riding for 5 seasons or less. they are not crazy freestylers - just regular kites. we ride in moderate to strong conditions. rarely do we race in sub 12 knots.


Like most of us :-) Though I think the boards are like made for ultra light wind. In 12 mph, we're going fast!!!
Quote:
those that chose sectors picked up riding big finned race boards much faster than those that went to more pro orientated boards. the guys are on the pro boards have spent ages in the water with a much slower learning curve.


..but the wide boards are barely out in the stores? We are comparing the 70 cm to the free race boards right?

Quote:
two riders of the same experience level 6 months into riding wide body big fin directionals, the sector rider was winning the races. no doubt the rider on the pro board should be winning the races in a years time. has he/she had fun getting to that position? will the sector rider jump on a new pro board in a years time and beat the guy who started off on the pro board?


Well I guess it would depend a little on which board. When we were racing, I was consistently point higher than the guy on the free race (I'm using this as collective term for the small fin slimmer race boards now to avoid this become a brand vs brand thing). I didn't always win...it seemed mostly random who would win since neither of us had any idea when to turn to hold the best line, or what kite to put up...but the board with bigger fins would go upwind way better.

Quote:
I dont think everything else being the same a pro board will win. in our races the guys on the pro boards get worked in the chop, have a hard time gybing them and then have a hard time controlling them on the down wind leg, by the time they are 1/2 way through a race their back leg is burning they are fatigued and can no longer keep up the pace. they are much harder boards to ride and get the most from. (newer designs may have changed in this respect.) in super light sub 10 knots they certainly have an advantage.


Were these mainly quads? I have a hard time imagining that the freeraceboard would both win the upwind, AND not have burning legs. To me it sounds like things were not the same. It seems your contention is that you have to be a pro to win with a proper raceboard? Saying that people spend months in the water sounds like a *slight* exaggeration. Sure riding on a small fin is easier, but it will not win a competition. Even if the price is only a sixpack....

Quote:
as a starting point for those that want to get into casual racing and be competitive (i would consider most regional races as casual) . the sector is a great choice.


I'd say for those who just want a great light wind board, but have no ambition it might be ;-)
Same with the north one and the naish one that has medium fins...actually it would be interesting to see how the sector would do against that board, since the medium fins are bigger than the sector fins.... I still think learning how to ride properly is easier on the bigger boards.
Downwind well the reason why the big boards moved to thruster was downwind control (if I remember that correctly)....but in general going on a reach is going to feel nuts on whatever board you are on..even in chop. I think the bigger boards feel like they are above the chop..kins of what I imagine the windsurfers feel like when they go fast, and in many ways going fast on the board I have now is easier because don't feel the bumps as bad...but I have not ridden it in monster chop as much.

Is the sector moving towards a thruster setup too?

Oh well I might not be able to convince you..but maybe if someone gets to demo..remember to demo WITH someone...much easier to see how the upwind angle is if you have a stake to measure it against :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:29 pm 
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If I wasn't trying to build a fleet I'd go out and just buy the cheapest 70cm board i could find. With my formula windsurfing experience I feel like getting up and going would be no problem.

However, for fleetbuilding I need something readily available and user friendly, even if it only performs at 90% of true raceboard performance. And really, this is just the first step. Ideally we build a fleet and the people in the fleet vote on what the rules should be. If 2 years in the fleet decides to change boards we change boards, if the fleet decides to limit kites to a specific model we do that. This is how most one design sailing classes are run and how they incorporate new technology.

And it's not about "winning" against a raceboard. It's about wind range, and it's about even performance. Another factor not mentioned is that a 150 lb rider and a 200 lb rider of equal skills should be exactly as fast as each other. I feel like the higher volume, wide body boards would better meet this criteria.

Getting the fleet is EVERYTHING. Without people to sail with this is going to be no fun at all and a complete waste of money.

Currently, the new Airush One(not out yet) feels like it's going to best meet my criteria. Because it's a reasonable pricepoint($950), it's going to be in production for a long time, and it looks user friendly(that last one is of minor importance - the first two win for me)

As for naish's current lineup, It's too pretty. I'm never going to buy that 2012 raceboard or anything in the 2012 line for that matter. All wooded out and clear coat carbon, ugh. Who would want a piece of performance equipment like that. You can't repair it. Paint it white...Actually, better than that, flat battleship grey or one shade lighter(whisper grey) no glare, dark enough where it's not hard to look at in the sun, light enough so it doesn't get hot...

You guys have convinced me out of the 2010 north free race or anything under 60cm for that matter which puts the only Aguera board with a good price point(the CR 53) out of the running.

I'd love to have a fleet of 70 cm raceboards buzzing around, but the pricepoint is a major factor. Make a cheap raceboard. Get rid of the carbon. Who cares if it weighs a couple of pounds more. I garuntee it wouldn't mean a thing for my purposes. Shoot, windsurfing construction would be great. A PVC shell with foam and glass on the inside. 5, 10, or even 15 lbs is going to mean NOTHING if everyone is using the same board in a one design class. Some of the most fun one design classes use the worst and heaviest equipment. Look at windsurfing.

If any of the board builders out there are listening, make a good mold, gelcoat, then glass, then fill it with foam expanding spray foam. These One Design Boards should be cheap enough that when you go to compete in other countries you just buy a new board and sell it there rather than shipping yours there and back. And as for keeping designs current, a one design fleet will be able to afford to update frequently if the boards are cheep. Hell, if a boardmaker created and stuck to a production plan and had boards in the $700 range I could see a worldwide One Design fleet upgrading every 2 years.

Johnny Heineken needs carbon to reach his potential. I do not...

Design is important...
Construction is not important...


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap, durable raceboard.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:46 pm 
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TooMuchEpoxy wrote:
If I wasn't trying to build a fleet I'd go out and just buy the cheapest 70cm board i could find. With my formula windsurfing experience I feel like getting up and going would be no problem.

However, for fleetbuilding I need something readily available and user friendly, even if it only performs at 90% of true raceboard performance. And really, this is just the first step. Ideally we build a fleet and the people in the fleet vote on what the rules should be. If 2 years in the fleet decides to change boards we change boards, if the fleet decides to limit kites to a specific model we do that. This is how most one design sailing classes are run and how they incorporate new technology.

And it's not about "winning" against a raceboard. It's about wind range, and it's about even performance. Another factor not mentioned is that a 150 lb rider and a 200 lb rider of equal skills should be exactly as fast as each other. I feel like the higher volume, wide body boards would better meet this criteria.

Getting the fleet is EVERYTHING. Without people to sail with this is going to be no fun at all and a complete waste of money.

Currently, the new Airush One(not out yet) feels like it's going to best meet my criteria. Because it's a reasonable pricepoint($950), it's going to be in production for a long time, and it looks user friendly(that last one is of minor importance - the first two win for me)

As for naish's current lineup, It's too pretty. I'm never going to buy that 2012 raceboard or anything in the 2012 line for that matter. All wooded out and clear coat carbon, ugh. Who would want a piece of performance equipment like that. You can't repair it. Paint it white...Actually, better than that, flat battleship grey or one shade lighter(whisper grey) no glare, dark enough where it's not hard to look at in the sun, light enough so it doesn't get hot...

You guys have convinced me out of the 2010 north free race or anything under 60cm for that matter which puts the only Aguera board with a good price point(the CR 53) out of the running.

I'd love to have a fleet of 70 cm raceboards buzzing around, but the pricepoint is a major factor. Make a cheap raceboard. Get rid of the carbon. Who cares if it weighs a couple of pounds more. I garuntee it wouldn't mean a thing for my purposes. Shoot, windsurfing construction would be great. A PVC shell with foam and glass on the inside. 5, 10, or even 15 lbs is going to mean NOTHING if everyone is using the same board in a one design class. Some of the most fun one design classes use the worst and heaviest equipment. Look at windsurfing.

If any of the board builders out there are listening, make a good mold, gelcoat, then glass, then fill it with foam expanding spray foam. These One Design Boards should be cheap enough that when you go to compete in other countries you just buy a new board and sell it there rather than shipping yours there and back. And as for keeping designs current, a one design fleet will be able to afford to update frequently if the boards are cheep. Hell, if a boardmaker created and stuck to a production plan and had boards in the $700 range I could see a worldwide One Design fleet upgrading every 2 years.

Johnny Heineken needs carbon to reach his potential. I do not...

Design is important...
Construction is not important...

TME,
this brings you back to one of the best "allround free raceboards " Sector 60 V2.
I have a friend he is 95kg, and has no problem, I myself am 78kg, My friends daughter has 60kg max and with the sector no problem.
I would if I were you go out to a test event, and write the brands that will be there an email that you want to test their raceboards that are under €750 regular retailprice!!! there will not be a lot available that fill your needs.
Again I have nothing to do with AIrush, but I have an airush 60V2 myself, and I am not racing I am cruisng longs distances in lightwind with it. I also have taken it out with a 12m kite and a 9m kite in real choppy conditions, and the board remains easy.
YOu can ride the bord flat, which will give you the best performance, but even on the rail it will be controllable, this is an alround race board, one of the few.
Btw I have 57 years and have been with boards at my feet during 34 years now. (windsurfing /kiting)...I can say I have some expierence and understand your point 100% ( I have done regattas myself, one class and open class windsurfing)

Good luck! and again keep us posted
Frank L.
SWITCHKITES teamrider


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