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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:55 am 
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Bitt wrote:
Mr_Weetabix wrote:
Peter_Frank wrote:

I dont agree with this, if you (as it seems) say this should be "normal" practice for all kite schools :o

Having another pair of students sharing one kite more, close by, usually those that got the hang of it the fastest during the course (or it could also be the second day of a course) - is IMO no problem and it does not make sense not to do this.

So, what do the other pair of students get out of their "lesson"? They might as well hire a kite and go off and practice by themselves.


1. I find that getting input, then practicing a bit by my own before getting new input is very effective. The body and muscles need to learn the movements and that takes time and repetition. I learn more if I split one hour of instruction into 4x15 min with 45 minutes of practice on my own between each part, than of 1 hour of practice with continuous feedback.

2. You are in a much safer learning environment. The instructor can watch out for you and help you during launch and landing (the most dangerous part), and come to the rescue if something goes wrong while on the water. That beats being on your own by a long shot.


Exactly !

Being in a strict supervisored environment, and going for the things learned and "mentally" interpreted, on your own - is imo a must, in order to learn (after the initial lesson/stages are carried out).

And there is by no means any comparison to kitesurfers going at it themeselves - where wind and wind changing, and kitechoice, and everything (the instructor takes care of) will go wrong....


In fact, most students WANT to try relanching f.ex - on their own, and ask it they can do that, shortly after they got it right a couple of times.

Because they know that things can not be learned by teaching/receiving instructions 100% of the time - as we all know wont work well :o

Whether the instructor will allow this or not, is of course an individual judgement of the student and session in general.


Another thing that many miss here, is that even if we could put an "ideal" school situation up in our minds, like 1 kite 1 student and 5 instructors with boats and knifes all over the place to leeward etc etc - it might not be possible at all to carry out - maybe not even close.


There will always be a risk - and it is all about to make it balance where it is reasonable.

But what "reasonable" is, is VERY hard to come to any agreement about it seems :wink:

Those having kiteschools seem to defend what they do, no matter what direction they use.
Those not having kiteschools, often tend to say it should be WAY more strict regarding safety and surveillance - as a "desktop" solution.
Others are close to the school situations in other respects, and have a different view on things.

Above is very natural and this is why it is not easy to agree on anything here :roll:

:D Peter


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Haven't read most of the 23 pages here but ... has anyone said that sometimes, all you need out of a lesson is the security of knowing that someone is keeping their eye on you?

My last 4 days of lessons were basically that - I had the right gear for the conditions, I had a guy on-shore or nearby with a jetski watching and the 'instruction' consisted of "You're doing it right - keep trying!" Gave me the confidence to really try it by myself.

Freaky things happen ... sometimes it all just goes wrong. Ask AJ :(


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:43 pm 
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*uck leashes, happened today, experienced rider. Leash attached to ankle!!!!
Board leashes in lessons is gross negligence, they are guaranteed to make the board hit the person they are attached to, how much evidence do you need?

If a person does not have the skills, patience and persistence to body drag back to the board, they should not be getting into kiting.
If you are teaching with board leashes you are teaching people to smash themselves with board leashes, and in my opinion you have sold out to you own wallet.
All the excuses you are quoting here about why you need to use board leashes are bullshit!


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:56 pm 
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Good points Steve and no argument from me. Hope the guy is ok. Lots of guys with fractured skulls from board leash impacts needed staples to close the wound. This includes a number of boards that sliced through helmets as if they weren't even there. The first one I heard about was ten years ago and how many since that time? Also, scalp wounds usually bleed profusely, was this a while after his impact and what did they do to close it up?


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:53 pm 
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kitepower wrote:
*uck leashes, happened today, experienced rider. Leash attached to ankle!!!!
Board leashes in lessons is gross negligence, they are guaranteed to make the board hit the person they are attached to, how much evidence do you need?

If a person does not have the skills, patience and persistence to body drag back to the board, they should not be getting into kiting.
If you are teaching with board leashes you are teaching people to smash themselves with board leashes, and in my opinion you have sold out to you own wallet.
All the excuses you are quoting here about why you need to use board leashes are bullshit!


Couldn't agree more !
:thumb: :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Not having read all 23 pages of this thread, I may be repeating what's been said. Sorry. But I don't understand why board leashes don't come with an easily replaceable weak link. Board leashes have their place--not all situations are the same. With a weak link in the system, there shouldn't be any of the major trauma from board impacts. Has anybody seen or experienced any situations where somebody used a weak link (like a plastic clip instead of a metal one) and a reel-type leash that resulted in serious injury? I get that it wouldn't be something that you could rely on, but using a board leash is typically done for the sake of convenience, not a necessity.

IMO

Don


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:04 pm 
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kitepower wrote:
*uck leashes, happened today, experienced rider. Leash attached to ankle!!!!
Board leashes in lessons is gross negligence, they are guaranteed to make the board hit the person they are attached to, how much evidence do you need?

If a person does not have the skills, patience and persistence to body drag back to the board, they should not be getting into kiting.
If you are teaching with board leashes you are teaching people to smash themselves with board leashes, and in my opinion you have sold out to you own wallet.
All the excuses you are quoting here about why you need to use board leashes are bullshit!


Thanks for the picture... "worth a thousand words" ... about 5 years ago I took a guy to the hospital with that exact injury...Got some questions: (1) sounds like it was a classic surfboard leash, if it was attached to the ankle...right? (2) Was this injury in the surf? If so, was the injury due to the "recoil" of the stretched out leash material, where the board "tombstones" and loads up with force, and then leaps out of the water? Or maybe the injury was due to the board sliding down a wave face, maybe tail first, and wacking his head, with the edge of the board or the backside of the fin? (3) was the board a twin-tip, a surf board, wake skate, skim board or some other type? (4) What was the location of the leash attachment to the board? (4) what material was the leash made of, webbing, PVC tube, rope, etc.? (5) What action initiated the cascade of events, ending in the injury... tumbling in the waves, jumping, doing a roll, just falling off the board, etc. (6) What was the length of the leash...4 feet, 6 feet, 10 feet, etc.? (6) Was the leash attached using some type of "break-away" device like a 'zip tie', which would snap at a predetermined force?

In an attempt to design a leash that would not have resulted in the above injury, it is important to know the facts of each case of injury.

Maybe we won't have to "throw out the baby, with the bath water", and a much safer leash can be designed, but unless the victims and witnesses to these untoward events take the time to present the details of each incident, then, this task will take much longer and many more such injuries will occur. Hopefully, you and others will take the time to present the facts.


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Kiters have been killed and injured as a result of board leashes in more ways than just impact. They have caused some bad line tangles as well. Pulling kiters under the water has also led to exhaustion and drowning in some cases. Just picking the damn thing up and attaching it has killed kiters when they lost control of their kite in strong winds.

In my area outside of long distance races and kiting in a cut with an outgoing tide against uneven or light wind, there really isn't any reason to use one. The last time I had the later situation, I wasn't using a leash, was seven or eight years ago. It is too easy to body drag to recover your board as a rule in these parts. I know there must be other exceptions in other conditions in the world for using them but that is about it for my area.

The main reason they were used back in the day in this area before the word got out was lack of proper training and laziness. These are not good reasons to use leashes. Still folks will continue to use them despite photos of bashed out teeth, sliced heads, other body parts and the odd deceased kiter.


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:02 pm 
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Got some difficulty in understanding how leashes are considered as a value add to the student.

A school should teach people to do kiteboard in the conditions they will kiteboard - without leashes.

Sorry to be honest but I think some people here are just trying to rationalize this need, ie, making excuses.

I do reckon a leash is a big help to a school:
1. the instructor does not have to botter himself to retreive a lost board in case the student is not able to body-drag and find it
2. there will be no missing boards in the end of the day;
but this is being done at the sole expense of adding risk to the student (even if minor, discussable), exactly what shouldn´t be done.


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 Post subject: Re: beginner death in france, detailed by the teacher.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:08 pm 
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RickI wrote:
Good points Steve and no argument from me. Hope the guy is ok. Lots of guys with fractured skulls from board leash impacts needed staples to close the wound. This includes a number of boards that sliced through helmets as if they weren't even there. The first one I heard about was ten years ago and how many since that time? Also, scalp wounds usually bleed profusely, was this a while after his impact and what did they do to close it up?


Board leashes are a major hazard, but discussions regarding this type of issue are incomplete without addressing the safety of boards. many boards are just way to heavy and have really thin sharp edges.

Don't think that you are safe simply because you don't use a leash.

A while ago while jumping a very sudden percussive gust hit and flicked me upside down throwing mu board (a TT) into the air and I met the board with my head. I always wear a helmet. The fin went straight through my helmet and cut my scalp. About a 1.5 inch gash.

I now ride strapless surfboards and choose light ones. While some prefer "bomb proof" boards I prefer boards that will break before my head caves in. I have just learn't to ride less brutally and use flex in my legs to absorb impact. My knees are happier too. yea... I do have to do the odd repair here and there but when a board get thrown at me in the surf I'm better off


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