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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
Thanks Greg and Steve :thumb:

At the end I made 3 successfull ones without getting "wet" (but still with lots of wipeouts in between) :lol:

So now I KNOW it is possible, and I have an idea what works and what does not work - but most of it is simply a delicate timing that has to be practiced over and over till it is in muscle memory :wink:

:D Peter

Good one Pete!
Do you think you would have succeeded as fast had you not first posted your goal here?
The fact all eyes were on you an incentive?
If so, anyone who wants to learn a new trick fast should say it loud on the forum!


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:20 am 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
Thanks Greg and Steve :thumb:

Important things:
Not too much speed - a gentle glide, but nor too slow so you sink and the tail sinks.
Kite positioning has to be very neutral on top, and dont redirect the kite too early.
And the board has to be turned quite far through.

Apart from that - I can not say WHAT I do wrong and what I do right, when I succeed - eventhough I tried having the back foot very leeward opposed to windward, and having the rear foot far forward opposed to back at the strap, and leaning a lot back in the turn opposed to standing upright and leaning forward against the nose :o
But there was nothing that seemed to work better by a huge amount - only to get the timing perfect worked - which was not easy, and not "explainable" :wink:


It seemed just as impossible as 25 years ago when we learned windsurf 360'ies.
Tried over and over, and seemed impossible - suddenly you managed, but did not fully know why.
And later when learned - it is really easy.
A piece of cake, especially in waves one can make a planing 360 quite easy - WHEN LEARNED in muscle memory and timed right.

Anyway - now I have tried the kite duck tack myself and know how it feels when it works, eventhough my body can not remember a thing yet... 8)

It seems a bit more risky than doing a "regular" tack, in terms of kiteracing - but maybe the good guys can nail them 100% even in rough conditions ? I dont know - but respect to those who can :naughty:

Havent tried on my waveboard yet - but will try soon.

:D Peter


This is the firs tack I learned and struggled to learn the shovit tack.

Your important things list is great.

I try to come in with some juice, I figure it is a tack so if I can glide up wind while bringing the kite to neutraI am only helping out my VMG.

My goal is to bleed speed and power in till I know I have just enough to make my self weightless under the bar. I learned by taking my back foot out of the strap first but now I just leave both feet in, as soon as my nose goes dead up wind I rip my back foot out and slam it into the front strap that force is enough to push the board into the new direction.
As soon as my rear foot hits the front strap I start to sign (or back loop depending on power) into the new direction right when the kites starts to move, I pull out my old front foot and go for the back strap if I have plenty of power, of right in front of it if I am lightly powered.

I sunk at first but as soon as I learned to make power right away it became much easier. The duck tack is now my chicken tack that I do in big chop or when worn out since I seem to hit it 98% of the time plus if you do blow it your board is usally still on your feet or close by, it seems when I blow a shovit tack My board goes up wind a bit.

Good luck :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:21 am 
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What is a "shovit tack" ?

Have never heard that expression, and can not find anything about it ?

I know the "Shovit" from windsurfing, but that is a jump where you push your board into the wind, while leaning over the sail like you are gonna drop - but you keep wind on the "wrong" (forward) side of the sail, in order to balance in the air :naughty:

:D Peter


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:27 am 
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It is when you kick the board under your feet into the new direction, with your back facing the wind. The term comes from the skateboard, wakeskate, skimboard trick. "shove it".

The board makes the tack and your body does not, I am assuming this is the tack you are currently doing?.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:20 am 
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Billy B. wrote:
It is when you kick the board under your feet into the new direction, with your back facing the wind. The term comes from the skateboard, wakeskate, skimboard trick. "shove it".

The board makes the tack and your body does not, I am assuming this is the tack you are currently doing?.


Yes, that is a "normal" tack, jumping round back to the wind, like in windsurfing :thumb:

But "kicking" in the new direction ?

Maybe this goes for a skimboard or strapless or airborne waveboard - but on a raceboard you glide up through the wind (admittedly pushing hard with your back foot, true), but you actually pull with your front foot in order to turn the board fast and narrow - and no kicking.

The big fins wont turn fast just by rear foot pressure - and "kicking" the tail is (IMO) impossible on raceboards, unless your boardspeed approaches zero maybe, so you stall the fins :wink:

--------

Actually, the reason why the duck tack seems so "odd", is that I can not mentally see how it physically is possible to do it :o
Strange - as one CAN do it, quite easy (when you can), but having a kite "line" pulling slightly up and downwind - while you move upwind and turn around with your body underneath to LEEWARD, is soooo physically wrong and an unstable situation.
Find it almost impossible to do when standing on the beach, if you have a bit of power in the kite.

Dont know if anyone understand what I mean ?
And yes, I know it is "just" my brain/mind that is a drawback here....

Wonderful to experience the duck tack myself a couple of times, eventhough I can not do it yet (except by almost pure luck) 8)

Because the normal tack is a "stable" and controlled situation where you can counteract in many differenet ways (your kitepull and you are balanced and counteracts correct at all times), you can do it both slow and fast and however you like - so it is quite "safe" I think.

But as with everything else, like jibes etc - when you CAN do it 100%, other tacks might become easier/safer ?

:D Peter


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:53 pm 
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When I try this Duck Tack, I lose track of what the kite is doing. I need to try it with just the one hand. I learned the Shovit tack 1st. I recently reached 100% success, when I saw a bit of suspect dorsal fin close inside, about where I do the tack. Suddenly I became very efficient, and all my tacks became clean. It was like having a personal trainer.

Billy B., question: As you can do both now, do you think the inertia you bring spinning your body around to Duck Tack can carry forward in the new direction? Is it potentially more efficient than the Shovit Tack? Is there any practical reason to master it over the easier Shovit Tack? I get dizzy.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:26 pm 
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windrupted wrote:
When I try this Duck Tack, I lose track of what the kite is doing. I need to try it with just the one hand. I learned the Shovit tack 1st. I recently reached 100% success, when I saw a bit of suspect dorsal fin close inside, about where I do the tack. Suddenly I became very efficient, and all my tacks became clean. It was like having a personal trainer.

Billy B., question: As you can do both now, do you think the inertia you bring spinning your body around to Duck Tack can carry forward in the new direction? Is it potentially more efficient than the Shovit Tack? Is there any practical reason to master it over the easier Shovit Tack? I get dizzy.


I think either tack can have sucsessful movement out of it, But I personally seem to gain more ground upwind while using the duck tack becuase I feel like my body carries momentium into the next turn for sure!

I have been able to do both tacks for the last 3 seasons. On race boards and surf or skim gear, but I still find the duck tack being my comfort tack on my race board, and my go to tack when I need to nail it, while on surfboard, skim board I use the shovit tack most often.


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
Billy B. wrote:
It is when you kick the board under your feet into the new direction, with your back facing the wind. The term comes from the skateboard, wakeskate, skimboard trick. "shove it".

The board makes the tack and your body does not, I am assuming this is the tack you are currently doing?.


Yes, that is a "normal" tack, jumping round back to the wind, like in windsurfing :thumb:

But "kicking" in the new direction ?

Maybe this goes for a skimboard or strapless or airborne waveboard - but on a raceboard you glide up through the wind (admittedly pushing hard with your back foot, true), but you actually pull with your front foot in order to turn the board fast and narrow - and no kicking.

The big fins wont turn fast just by rear foot pressure - and "kicking" the tail is (IMO) impossible on raceboards, unless your boardspeed approaches zero maybe, so you stall the fins :wink:

--------

Actually, the reason why the duck tack seems so "odd", is that I can not mentally see how it physically is possible to do it :o
Strange - as one CAN do it, quite easy (when you can), but having a kite "line" pulling slightly up and downwind - while you move upwind and turn around with your body underneath to LEEWARD, is soooo physically wrong and an unstable situation.
Find it almost impossible to do when standing on the beach, if you have a bit of power in the kite.

Dont know if anyone understand what I mean ?
And yes, I know it is "just" my brain/mind that is a drawback here....


:D Peter


You might call it a "Normal Tack" and may say you push with one foot and pull with the other, I may use the term kick to explain the same thing, they are the same thing I just may do it with more force, I have no problem "kicking/pushing" my nose while pivoting the "stalled" rear fins on my Aguera, It was even easier on my North Race 2010( I think I read that is what you ride?) Some times on my surfboard I do a little up wind olly so the fins are out of the water.

Can you do a Back roll? The pivot motion and kite position in the Duck tack is the same as doing a Little baby back roll with your feet on the water/board just skimming the surface. I have taught friends the correct motion and kite position by having them go out on twin tip and do little back rolls with the kite at neutral while trying to "drag" the board on the water during the spin. Then they go out on directional and have at it, with great sucsess

Also if you are riding the 2010 north It can be a little harder to duck tack becuase it has less volume and wants to sink. bigger volume boards are much easier to duck tack becuase the can hold more weight and you don't need to have the lift motion of the kite as perfect.

Hope you figure them out, super fun tack!


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:51 pm 
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Hi Peter,

The quick answer is to release the front hand so that you can reach forward, whilst sheeting the bar out and pushing forward off your back leg as it carves the board. This should help you "step up" the board. It does feel counter intuitive, but if you practice it on land first it'll help no end.

Its also easier to learn with a small kite, as the lift from a larger kite tends to hold you back. So if you are on a big one, trim the bar down first.

For a more in depth explanation have a read of our article on it:
http://www.iksurfmag.com/issue28/?page=89

Hope it helps, enjoy!
C & K


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 Post subject: Re: How do you tack a directional face into the wind ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Mr Harris wrote:
Hi Peter,

The quick answer is to release the front hand so that you can reach forward, whilst sheeting the bar out and pushing forward off your back leg as it carves the board. This should help you "step up" the board. It does feel counter intuitive, but if you practice it on land first it'll help no end.

Its also easier to learn with a small kite, as the lift from a larger kite tends to hold you back. So if you are on a big one, trim the bar down first.

For a more in depth explanation have a read of our article on it:
http://www.iksurfmag.com/issue28/?page=89

Hope it helps, enjoy!
C & K


Very nice, thanks 8)

But that is a very different way of doing it - where you lean forward a lot, and stand almost with both feet in the front straps when changing.

I like to (try to) do it where you dont lean forward - as this is also possible.

Just like on the very first video of a "duck tack":



Here you can see there is "no" leaning forward - just perfect timing and "swing" and a soar with both feet around - THAT is what I find fascinating, and having tried it a couple of times now - I am even more fascinated that it is possible :rollgrin:

:D Peter


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