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 Post subject: Challenge to Ram Lovers: Prove it in Hangtime comps
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:29 am 
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Ram lovers keep coming up with their kooky claims... case-in-point: NPR's kooky comments about the Psycho 2 and hangtime superiority.

Well, ram boys, here is your chance to prove it: The first leg of the PKRA is coming up in Austria. Even if you can't match it with inflatables in terms of Freestyle, at least just enter your kites in the hangtime event: Stop the crap, just PROVE IT!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:08 am 
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Location: Houston, Texas
If they have a hagtime comp at the velocity games, I'll be there! :thumb:
Look for the news early June

Later,
PR


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 Post subject: Re: Challenge to Ram Lovers: Prove it in HANGTIME comps
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:17 am 
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Pump me up wrote:
Ram lovers keep coming up with their kooky claims... case-in-point: NPR's kooky comments about the Psycho 2 and hangtime superiority.

Well, ram boys, here is your chance to prove it: The first leg of the PKRA is coming up in Austria. Even if you can't match it with inflatables in terms of Freestyle, at least just enter your kites in the hangtime event: Stop the crap, just PROVE IT!


Dear PMU,

The claim is made by Armin from FS in a recent interview in which he challenged you to a duel of hangtime LE vs Foil ,

I have made no such claim against you.

NPR

Anyhow , I am sure there will Be a FS entered in the next comp very soon.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:52 am 
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Hi PMU
I believe Steffan Cook came in second to Robby Naish by a fraction of a second on a G one arc a year ago. Aaron Jharmon won the hang time in a German event and I believe second overall in that one. He won hangtime in at least a few other events as well against all kinds of tubes. These guys are not paid to tour the world to raise their odds of placing high by entering in numerous contests. They actually have jobs outside of the occasional contest. You should tell us who and where you are located so we can teach you to jump on our favorite kites and perhaps give you some hands on experience of the attributes of other types of kites. Are you in Ca? I would be more than happy to help if you are. Attributes that are applicable to a normal person's kite flying skills are probably a bit more important than to what extent a less than careful paid pro will risk injury to earn a buck and a photo op. Think you have missed the point of enjoying yourself on the water with a user friendly kite. I don't drive a Ferrari F one to work each day so maybe I am off on this as well. See we have speed bumps on our roads and that car would just not work well here. We also have gusty winds and my arc tend to work better than my lei's in those.. Logic is a funny thing, isn't it??
Fly what you like. It is all about having fun with your friends on the water and keeping it safe. :thumb:
Traig


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 Post subject: Armin?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:22 am 
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For once PMU is making a good post (no cut 'n paste). I think it's a fair challange. Austria is quite close to FS's home base.

Armin, are you sending anyone?

/Daniel


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:33 am 
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MonkeyAir wrote:
Hi PMU
I believe Steffan Cook came in second to Robby Naish by a fraction of a second on a G one arc a year ago. Aaron Jharmon won the hang time in a German event and I believe second overall in that one. He won hangtime in at least a few other events as well against all kinds of tubes. These guys are not paid to tour the world to raise their odds of placing high by entering in numerous contests. They actually have jobs outside of the occasional contest. You should tell us who and where you are located so we can teach you to jump on our favorite kites and perhaps give you some hands on experience of the attributes of other types of kites. Are you in Ca? I would be more than happy to help if you are. Attributes that are applicable to a normal person's kite flying skills are probably a bit more important than to what extent a less than careful paid pro will risk injury to earn a buck and a photo op. Think you have missed the point of enjoying yourself on the water with a user friendly kite. I don't drive a Ferrari F one to work each day so maybe I am off on this as well. See we have speed bumps on our roads and that car would just not work well here. We also have gusty winds and my arc tend to work better than my lei's in those.. Logic is a funny thing, isn't it??
Fly what you like. It is all about having fun with your friends on the water and keeping it safe. :thumb:
Traig


You said it - AMEN!
But then PMU and logic.... now thats a far stretch.
Dont bother about the comp in austria, just go to the SKI in hurghada now - everybody is there and Armin too.
It will be so much more peaceful here once the videos and fotos come out to prove it and all the pmus start to go quieter and quieter.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:26 am 
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pmu i don't even ride foils anymore and i'm not likely to get invited to any pro tour comp soon, but i've not ridden any lei with the hangtime of the psycho's and i've ridden a lot of lei's.

i have no doubt at all that our resident flysurfer rider and importer will be out hanging everyone soon, he wont get the height but the hangtime has always been undeniable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:52 am 
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MonkeyAir wrote:
Hi PMU
I believe Steffan Cook came in second to Robby Naish by a fraction of a second on a G one arc a year ago. Aaron Jharmon won the hang time in a German event and I believe second overall in that one. He won hangtime in at least a few other events as well against all kinds of tubes. These guys are not paid to tour the world to raise their odds of placing high by entering in numerous contests. They actually have jobs outside of the occasional contest. You should tell us who and where you are located so we can teach you to jump on our favorite kites and perhaps give you some hands on experience of the attributes of other types of kites. Are you in Ca? I would be more than happy to help if you are. Attributes that are applicable to a normal person's kite flying skills are probably a bit more important than to what extent a less than careful paid pro will risk injury to earn a buck and a photo op. Think you have missed the point of enjoying yourself on the water with a user friendly kite. I don't drive a Ferrari F one to work each day so maybe I am off on this as well. See we have speed bumps on our roads and that car would just not work well here. We also have gusty winds and my arc tend to work better than my lei's in those.. Logic is a funny thing, isn't it??
Fly what you like. It is all about having fun with your friends on the water and keeping it safe. :thumb:
Traig


If ram lovers ONLY knew how PATHETIC and SAD it looks, quoting 3rd and 4th tier competitions results as evidence of the adequacy of ram airs.

"Little Jimmy wins the Granny Smith Kitesurfing Invitational flying his airborne doona, beating a field consisting of a slightly retarded cane toad flying a dead dung beetle on a thread of spider web and L'il Janey flying a one line diamond kite with a piccie of Mickey Mouse on it."

Prove your ridiculous hangtime claims in a credible competition like a PKRA leg or the Red Bull KOTA. Otherwise just keep your sad claims about ram dominance in backyard comps OFF the forum.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:50 am 
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Hi Jereme

As you know I ride and sell both LEI's and Rams so I don't give a toss .But lets see the colour of your money bro.(DSon't forget Steffan nearly had the hang time at the Aus nationals until you got that gust (friggin awesome jump by the way well done!).Traig to ansewre your question Jememe doesn't live in C a he lives in Sydney


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:36 am 
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Everyone with half a brain should know that 2 skinned foils are more efficient than a single skin because the flow is controlled/manipulated/optimized by intended design over both sides of the foil. This IS NOT THE POINT but is often mistaken or misunderstood to be so. The following attempts to explain why things are so between foils and LEI... like better hang for FS but better speed and height for LEI etc

Here are some facts worth noting...

Minimal lift induced drag is usually associted with maximizing the laminar flow distance over the wing chord on both sides of the foil. This minimises the votices generated which is the main component of lift induced drag. On the top surface, the flow WILL ALWAYS seperate at some point and (hopefully) reattach before the trailing edge... As someone stated before, turbulators control where the seperation occurs on some foils so that it may reattach further along the chord as desired.

A single skin foil can only optimize the flow over the top surface BUT the flow over the bottom surafce is much less critical at the angle of attack kites fly at optimally. The flow under the single skin LEI style foil in this case is affected by the reduced pressure above the foil and in this case the turbulance behind the LE bladder is less than you would think due to the negative pressure which explains why LEI are not as inferior to foils aerodynamically as you would think but still lack a little in this area hence a better L/D for the foil but not by much and this helps hangtime when the kites airspeed is slow.

Apart from lift induced drag, there is also profile drag and parasitic drag. Profile drag is related to the frontal cross sectional area (profile depth x span) presented to the direction of travel and parasitic drag on kites comes from the bridal and or flying lines. As you you would expect, bridals create much more parasitic drag than just 4 flying lines which goes in favour of LEI and ARCS and profile drag is also in favour on LEI`s and is also why they are reducing the diameter of these bladders as time goes on.

These types of drag are related to the airspeed and increase exponentially as airspeed builds therefore becoming exponentially more important at higher speeds, whereas lift induced drag is related to the amount of lift generated regardless of speed. LEI are fast arent they, this is why, less profile and parasitic drag which results in better performance at higher speeds.

You should also know that lift increases exponentially as airspeed increases for a given AOA and wing, it has already been discussed many times on this forum. So, if LEI can fly faster, they can develop exponentially more lift and thats why they jump so high but dont hang as long after the kite has slowed down.


Apart from all the theory, the way they fly, turn, speed, pop, feel etc not just the measureable lift, drag and laminar flow etc, is very complicated and very dynamic and i doubt these aspects will ever be able to be evaluated better in a wind tunnel as opposed to just getting out there and flying them even though its subjective. Some wind tunnel testing IS of course valuable and should be used in conjunction with real world testing.

Its not the theory that makes LEI kites great, nor all of PMU`s futile arguments, its just the way they fly... at least for the time being...


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