2011 Slingshot RPM Range - 12m is not necessarily 12m?

[CaptainArgh]

OK...so all whinging and whining, and ranting and raving behind us now. Back to the photos.

Are the 10 and 12 almost identical in size and performance? And if this is not the case, may we please get an explanation that is not defensive and deflecting, and includes some specific facts. Also, are the 10 and 12 closer to 10 sq M or are they closer to 12 sq M? Mark

I think Slingshot's initial response, and some of the others on this forum, already answer that. They are not producing the kites to the measured fabric expectation. They are producing kites to deliver the power you expect out of a 10 and a 12.

So, the more relevant question, which some people have already answered here, is do the 10M and 12M RPMs meet the power expectation when flown and what kind of differences do folks find between them? Again, it's been answered.

Measuring fabric isn't going to tell you anything because SS has already said, that isn't their goal.

Now, I agree it'd be curious to know this and compare it brand to brand. How many sq. meters of fabric in a SS kite vs. a Cabrinha, Best, North, etc. etc...

$.02

[GraemeF]

OK...so all whinging and whining, and ranting and raving behind us now. Back to the photos.

Are the 10 and 12 almost identical in size and performance?

No, one is twenty percent bigger than the other

Also, are the 10 and 12 closer to 10 sq M or are they closer to 12 sq M? Mark

That remains unknown at this precise moment in time since at least here in the U.K. we don't have any left in the warehouse or demo fleet to measure, but the indications are the 12 mtr was the original AND the 10m was also worked on as an individually different kite to produce similar performance for a lighter rider.

[robertovillate]

I'd put your mind at rest chum, they are not out to 'fleece' you, if they were trying to do that they'd be spending tens of thousands of euros writing books at huge expense over how they've dominated the kitesurfing market for ten years and how they are the master kite race and invented everything, like another brand I could mention.

What the bloody ell does a book by one of your competitors have to do with any of this? I've got wonderful books from Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, etc. that are sponsored by the manufacturer to give history to the brand and the business of their men & machinery...Surely you cannot expect North to write the history of every kitebrand or kite kook out there the last 15 years. I recently won a book from North and even though I have not been a North owner I very much appreciate the effort made and the content of the book.

Otherwise, I love reading about all the "rationale" behind (mis) labeling kites one size vs true size. In the old days we had the "projected size" which was changed universally to "flat measurement" which made a whole lot of sense for everyone. But this concept of labeling a kite by the way it "feels" is absurd. It's akin to arguing for truth in advertising in my opinion. If you say a can of soup has 100 grams inside than that's what you should get...not 80 grams just because one soup is more filling than another.

The kite companies have more than enough ability to say exactly what the size is and thats what they should do - I think it would be fair and HONEST to say within .5 meters would be the right thing to do. Round up or down depending on how your kite "feels" if you like, but at least be within .5m of true size.

Sure, draft and leading edge and all that can have a considerable effect...but handle that element of it as another parrt of the kite specifications which should be available in print.

ps...what's perhaps even more difficult to understand is the fact that Slingshot is a great brand and there is no reason for them to do this (mis-labeling). Sooner or later someone catches on and it just looks bad no matter how you try to explain it. Hopefully they (and all brends) learn from the experience.

[H53Driver]

OK...so all whinging and whining, and ranting and raving behind us now. Back to the photos.

Are the 10 and 12 almost identical in size and performance?

No, one is twenty percent bigger than the other

Also, are the 10 and 12 closer to 10 sq M or are they closer to 12 sq M? Mark

That remains unknown at this precise moment in time since at least here in the U.K. we don't have any left in the warehouse or demo fleet to measure, but the indications are the 12 mtr was the original AND the 10m was also worked on as an individually different kite to produce similar performance for a lighter rider.

It seems that you are trying to say "the 12 is a 12 and the 10 is a 10", which is fine. What I don't understand is why you don't just say it. The circular logic is confusing and hurts my head.

And based on the photo, "20 percent bigger" seems improbable. But as I said earlier, the photo could be misleading.

[longwhitecloud]

slingshot made all their kites much bigger than what they say from 2009, in comparison to most other brands (no kites are accurately sized really) with some big gaps between the money sized kites - 8-11m). Kind of bizzare.

Bring back the 5th line 2007 fuels with just a little more depower i say.

my friends are on 10m rpms when i am on 12m torch...

[GraemeF]

Well the 'calculated projected area' deal was dropped at almost the dawn of time, because it was so confusing and the lack of understanding of this issue perfectly illustrates why.

So,

A 12 mtr Bow, Delta, C and the RPM which was billed as a bridled C, all have very different 'projected areas' to the wind 'think shadow on the ground measured.'

Now, the C and the RPM both use their area more effectively in the turns as all the edges come into play whereas the flatter kites project more area in one dimension, does everyone get that?

So now you have to give an idea for reference and the closest thing is the kite size, now which ever way you play it, the kite actual real measured size is not that relevant if you are trying for a type of effect, which was to emulate a C kite with a bridled kite in this instance.

Those of you who have 'been the distance' will remember the transition from C's to Bow style and SLE's, and the flatter projection brought in smaller kites generally, who runs 21.5 and 25mtr kites these days? So with a 'return' to C style, they are going to feel smaller, it's logical is it not?

Anyway getting back to the issue at hand if you lay flat a ten metre RPM on top of a twelve metre RPM the Twelve metre RPM is definitely bigger in area, but when blown up, being C style they overlap especially as the do in that photograph, but it doesn't mean anything other than they are doing what was intended of them, the first and still the best emulation of the best C kite on the market from the company with the longest and most constant development of C style kites.

All their cash goes to R&D they have more patents than most of the other brands put together with the exception of the LG brothers personally i prefer R&D rather than marketing bollox.

[SBBeachbum]

All their cash goes to R&D they have more patents than most of the other brands put together with the exception of the LG brothers personally i prefer R&D rather than marketing bollox.

How did the Link happen then? Was the R&D department busy writing patents?

[edt]

I've measured my kites, took a picture of them on a tennis court, went into photoshop did a 3D rotate, then calculate area, it's pretty easy. If you want your kite measured send me a photo of it flat next to some sort of reference measure.

My feeling is that on smaller kites, the manufacturers lie sizing the down by roughly 1 meter. On the larger kites they lie sizing them up. There is absolutely no reason not to know flat area, projected area, wingspan, type of kite line, dyneema sk-75 or spectra, kite material, is it T9600 or some knockoff, what brand of pulleys, I mean, this stuff is not a trade secret, we can find out, it's just a pain for everyone except for Peter Lynn to hide the specs.

[GraemeF]

How did the Link happen then? Was the R&D department busy writing patents?

Talking to the wrong man dude imv the Link was the greatest kite ever built, overbuilt in fact, they'll still be flying when others are long gone, fast, stable steady pull, never did understand what all the fuss was about, too many bozos who don't know how to fly and tune a kite imv. Interesting another R&D idea that came from the same meeting, a kite with a W effect leading edge, shown but never built, until the following year by Naish.

Anyway I'm done here, too likely to be wound up by you boys, tatty by for now..

[Hansen Design]

Hi edt:

Cheers!

There is absolutely no reason not to know flat area, projected area, wingspan...

Switch specifications attachment removed in deference to GraemeF.