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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:46 pm 
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kitecomedy wrote:
But one Question is remaining for me:
What if for example I'm full powered - a gust hits me and Ì'm going to be overpowered. I have sheeted the Bar out for minimum power - but to get less power with the adjuster - I have to Sheet the Bar IN Again (creating more power in this moment)?


No, You can push the trim tab, but push then power trim tab. it's same as pulling depower trim tab.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Ismo wrote:
kitecomedy wrote:
What if for example I'm full powered - a gust hits me and Ì'm going to be overpowered. I have sheeted the Bar out for minimum power - but to get less power with the adjuster - I have to Sheet the Bar IN Again (creating more power in this moment)?

No, You can push the trim tab, but push then power trim tab. it's same as pulling depower trim tab.

I see... So to depower, you could either PULL the depower tab towards you, or PUSH the power tab away from you.

Well, that does makes sense, given how the system is constructed.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:32 pm 
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:cool2:
ludo zeeko wrote:
The new 2012 Zeeko bar introdiuces the UDS depower system, no clamcleat no depower straps, how does the depower system work?
watch the video : click here
that's the futur


The dude in video really looks from France :cool2:
In the video the RED tab is mostly on right side and BLACK tab on left side :!: :?: :!: :?:
I have an idea how it got that way (1/2 turn spun rotator below bar)
Anyway when viewing it can be confusing a bit ( red means "port" and should stay on left)
It would be easier to view if left RED tab always remained matching the bar that is RED on left
P.S. is there a way to make the tabs flop around less when riding? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:52 am 
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Dear All,
firstly I would like to thank you for your interest about our new Ultimate bar.
The bar was tested during months and I hope all of you will have a ride with.

I'll try to reply to all your questions.
Firstly we develop this system to suit all styles of rides.
The concept is very simple, we have one pulley on the top (the load is minimal on it due to the depower design, no need of very strenght piece, when you have a total of 200Kg load, on the pulley is only 100Kg. It is made to resist at 300Kg.) and a Stopper whichhave 3 functions:
- Stopper fonction: Plastic Stopper
- Depower fonction: Red Handle
- Power fonction: Black Handle

The colors are dedicated following what you can find on the market: depower= red Handle; power = Black handle, as we did before and other brands too.

What are the advantages:
- The trimming device can be moved where you want. There is no problem anymore for the short arms riders to grab the depower/power device. You choose yoursel where you want it. If you want to untwist lines during a kiteloop, just move it closer to the chicken loop to keep the power of the kite.
- Powered or depowered: all the lines are always stretched. The depower line design makes the system very clean and avoid any dangling
- You choose your depower length and the power management. This system is in the same vein than the 2011 bar we introduced with the trimmable depower line length. But with the ultimate bar, we made a step forward, making this trimming quicker and easier thanks to the stopper.

The stopper is the key of the system and the strenght of the stopper is trimmable adding or not the H-Stopper (there is a video to add the H-Stopper). When you pull one of the handles to have more or less power, it moves the stopper closer to the chicken loop. During ride, usually you just move it by some centimeters. To move it back you have 2 ways: moove it by hands or just push the bar.
Without the H-Stopper, the force to moove the stopper by pushing the bar is very light. In fact if you just let go of the bar, when the bar hits the stopper it will move by some cm.
Thanks to this trimming, this is also one of the safest system. For example, when you hit a gust, what is the safest? grabbing as quick as possible a depower device or just push the bar pushing the stopper and have an extra depower ability? for me the choice is simple.
If you don't want this effect (or just have it less), add the H-Stopper. The H-Stopper makes the system a little harder to move, but you can still moove it, this is not a fixed stopper. This H-stopper is dedicated for freestylers or people who want a harder stopper and have the stopper doesn't move when you let go of the bar. But you still can move it pushing the bar with one hand.
In this way, the system makes a huge advantage compare to fixed depower line length. When you it a gust, you can have an extra depower. The depower line length is adaptative to your desires even if you desire change every second. Isn't it good? :D

about your questions: changing the depower line is very easy not need any tools, we are preparing a video to show you it.
About aging of depower line, it is same as other system with a stopper.
For the side of the handles (red or black) it changes when you use the swivel, finally like other system. The thing is: more power: black handle, less power red handle, you can grab with both hands the handle even is it is on the opposite side.

don't hesitate if you tried the system to post your review or if you have any questions

Ride easy,



Nicolas


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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:42 pm 
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I love the idea! My bar setup that I made a few months back also has the stopper adjustable, and I can push the stopper way, way far out. Looks like you could (if you wanted/needed) to also push the zeeko stopper way out. This works fantastic as a safety system, as I find that when a gust hits, or something goes wrong there is not enough time to pull a safety, but there is enough time to push the bar out as far as you can reach. Normally this is far enough to act as a first "safety" feature, with the normal safety release as a backup.

My setup had below the bar depower, with only 2:1 gain on the depower making it difficult sometimes to depower. The Zeeko looks to have 3:1 effectively, and you pull down which is easier. I like this system a lot. The only wear that should be a problem is between the silver ring and te line folding through it. Maybe there should be a second pulley or maybe the wear is less than one would expect?


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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:49 pm 
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ChristoffM wrote:
...The Zeeko looks to have 3:1 effectively,...



2:1 advantage, where the overall length of the powerline is shortened 1 cm for every 2 cm that the ring is pulled down toward the bar.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:33 pm 
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To be sure that the comment in my previous post was correct, I made a little model from some rope and some pulleys. After doing so I found the answer to another person's question about whether or not the system would slide back into a "full power", if an extreme amount of force was placed on the chicken loop. It appears that this arrangement of pulleys, rope and ring resists an extreme force and is perfectly balanced in any of its infinitely adjustable length positions.

ZEEKO,

WOW! What a great concept for any number of uses, where a quick and stable length adjustment is required. I have never seen this length adjustment system used for any other application. Did you create this concept, yourself, or did you find such a system in use for another purpose, such as adjusting the line lengths of a piece of equipment used on a sailboat or the lines of a tent?

Have you applied for a patent for this "infinitely variable length adjustment device"?

I can think of a possible application of this type of device where the rope and pulley system would serve not only the use of a "powerline adjuster", but also as the "safety system" for the type of a kite which uses a mini-fifth line safety system.

As an example, the Cabrinha Crossbow, uses the IDS (mini-fifth line) system, and it seems that a kiter could substitute the ZEEKO style system for the IDS system... by using about 30 feet of powerline, which would allow the bar to slide a distance of 10 and one-half feet, up the power line, when released.

This is the distance needed to engage the mini-fifth line system to bring the kite down to the water, where it would land in a depowered (flagged) state. It would seem that this system could function WITHOUT the "stopper/Prussic knot" adjuster device, and that the kiter could just reach up and grab one of the two power lines, in order to make an adjustment to the trim length. The rope might be slippery, but I would think that the kiter could head downwind, in the same way a kiter with a 'below the bar' cleat system must do, at times, in order to decrease the tension on the power line, before making an adjustment.

With this arrangement, without the stopper, the kiter could just let go of the bar and the kite would flag out. The kiter would then just pull in about 10 feet of the doubled power line to retrieve the bar.

If there was a severe problem the kiter could release everything by triggering the ONE safety release.

Anyway, I must congratulate you on this interesting and unique concept for a line length adjustment system.

Where did you get the idea?

Here is a picture of the "Z-Drag" system of pulleys and lines and 2 Prussic Knots, that is very unique, also, but of course is very different from your "Zeeko system".


Attachments:
Z_drag.png
Z_drag.png [ 2.85 KIB | Viewed 1374 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:46 am 
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Outstanding Inovation and excellent video!

Its been a while since I have been truly impressed but something new in the kite industry and this is. There has been 3 basic methods to depower a kite for some time now. The Above bar cleat (North, F-One and RRD), The below the bar Cleat (Slingshot, Naish) and the strap (Naish, Cabrinha, Airush, Core) and now a forth (Zeeko).

I will indeed look into this further!


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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:06 pm 
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WildDuke wrote:
Outstanding Inovation and excellent video!

Its been a while since I have been truly impressed but something new in the kite industry and this is. There has been 3 basic methods to depower a kite for some time now. The Above bar cleat (North, F-One and RRD), The below the bar Cleat (Slingshot, Naish) and the strap (Naish, Cabrinha, Airush, Core) and now a forth (Zeeko).

I will indeed look into this further!


Don't for get the rear line adjustment system, which was offered for a year (or more?) on the Masterpiece bar. Toby could comment more on this system, if he wanted to. The problem with the idea of a rear line shortening device, which was operated from the bar, by the kiter... was that both lines needed to be independently adjusted, at about the same time. The Masterpiece bar used a "strap and buckle" device. At the time, I remember a KF member suggesting that the concept could possibly work more smoothly, if an internal capstan system were substituted for the strap and buckle device. The capstan device would be operated, using a small folding crank located at the end of the bar. This device would be complex and expensive and thereby, would violate the KISS rule of engineering. There was no follow-up on the suggestion, as far as I know.

The beauty (at least to a tinkerer) of the ZEEKO system is its simplicity, low cost, and ease of warnout part replacement.

This morning, I am putting together a short-line bar, using a long (11 feet) ZEEKO style powerline adjuster/mini-fifth line safety combination system, which I will test for use in a "drifting/drift" style deep water self-launch system... and if it works OK, I will present a description of the self-launch on this forum.

From my initial tests, it seems that, even without pulleys, that a kiter would be able to adjust the powerline length, by simply grabbing one line or the other and simply pulling on the wet line. I will report back on this hypothesis.


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 Post subject: Re: Zeeko ultimate bar no clamcleat no depower straps?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:27 pm 
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I'm pretty sure I understand how it works but I am still a bit unsure of HOW it would change kiting for me on the water, but it definitely is gonna change kiting. I would LOVE to demo this new bar.

From what I can tell it has near zero flaws. Only thing I would do would be remove those floppy handles and engineer some compact ones that aim down at the rider instead of sticking out.

Big props guys! Glad to see some engineering.


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