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RickI
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:48 pm |
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am Posts: 7988 Location: Florida
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I don't favor mandatory requirements in kiting particularly as enforced by government. I do favor independent choice particularly the smart choice to kite responsibly and sustainably. Government doesn't really care what I favor and will likely do what they feel like doing however.
There have been a number of fatalities over the years which might have been avoided if the kiter had worn a flotation aid. It takes energy to stay afloat particularly in more extreme, stressful conditions, eventually this can lead to poor decisions, exhaustion and potentially drowning. Guys separate from kites, or can't hang on any longer, hypothermia can take your strength and ability to act and stay afloat. One fellow drowned in Australia years back the day before he was going to buy an impact vest the next day. He drowned in conditions he likely would have survived with a vest on. Wetsuits are buoyant but the flotation is distributed over your body, flotation aids like impact vests concentrate it around your upper torso. They may provide around 15 pounds of flotation, sometimes less, concentrated in this area where it will do the most good in helping to keep your head above water. If you wear and impact vest and a wetsuit or drysuit you really have some good flotation.
I forget I am wearing an impact vest in minutes. Many of these vests were designed with wakeboarders in mind with all the wakestyle tricks they like to throw. I like to go wherever I feel like kiting if conditions support it, this can be several miles offshore or along the coast, from island to island, whatever. Doing this sort of riding without a flotation aid would be stupid and irresponsible. The furtherest I have swum was six miles along the shore and an insanely tedious thing, one I wouldn't want to readily repeat. Still, it isn't necessarily a matter of insufficient swimming ability, it is just common sense and a lifetime of being in the ocean.
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Bigdog
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:59 pm |
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:50 pm Posts: 371 Location: Wolfe Island Canada
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What brand pfd's/impact vests are you guys liking?
Stan
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Miltsface
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:11 pm |
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:13 pm Posts: 194 Location: No Affiliations
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I'm in the OP's state.
Arguments against:
1) another place for a line to get snagged when things go wrong, resulting in a higher frequency of looping/dragging accidents.
2) makes body dragging back to your board much more difficult by adding drag and lessening the ability to get deep in the water to be an effective keel. Consequently, the kiter is separated from part of his "vessel" (as defined above) for longer periods of time - and in some conditions, prohibiting the kiter from ever retrieving the board. Since the board is an integral part of the vessel, the the pfd could effectively result in disabling vessel.
3) pfd's available on the market are not designed to function with kite safety releases. They could block access to or interfere with the operation of quick release systems. If I'm in a situation where I need to release, I want my reaction to be automatic, not "ok, reach around the vest, try to find the release".
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RickI
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:29 pm |
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am Posts: 7988 Location: Florida
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How many folks on here have worn flotation aids for years? A lot more than wear helmets from what I see out there. I've been wearing impact vests for at least 12 years kiting with no serious problems yet. On the contrary they can help with deepwater repairs, swimming into shore with wind shifts or if it dies altogether in addition to if things really go south. Can they tangle stuff, sure I suppose they could. Just like harnesses, harness hook, buckles, foostraps, bar winders, feet, legs, arms, hands, heads, etc. etc.. What is the benefit vs. the risk in the actual accident experience? There is a good deal of experience out there with these safety aids unlike back in 2002. There is less need for reasoning absent actual experience in short. So, what has your experience been over the years with appropriate flotation aids for kiting?
Bigdog I've been using a Neil Pryde High Hook Vest for some years.
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Bille
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:44 pm |
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Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:37 pm Posts: 964
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ONLY reason i wear a PFD is because my prosthetics weigh 10lb total ; i sink like a stone unless i'm moving my arms fast. If not for that, i probably wouldn't have one.
HOWEVER
I have hit the water hard enough that it could have broken a rib, if not for my water-ski vest ; so it does work as an impact vest quite well.
Having a PFD should be a personal choice !
Bille
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Miltsface
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 pm |
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Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:13 pm Posts: 194 Location: No Affiliations
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Rick, you state above that you've been wearing a (kite-specific designed, i assume) impact vest. This could be looked at as a flotation aid, but its not the same as a CGA pfd, which is what's being imposed on us. These will be much bulkier and much more prone to the issues I've posted above.
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RickI
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:55 pm |
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am Posts: 7988 Location: Florida
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If they are requiring actual USCG PFD certification that will reduce your impact vest choices but there still some out there. The thing is many impact vests are similar to USCG Type III PFDs but may differ in material type, color, etc.. Getting USCG certification is an expensive, time consuming process. For that reason a lot of impact vest manufacturers don't bother with it. They aren't requiring you to wear Type I PFDs I hope? Also, would they go for Type II USCG inflatable life jackets, which are very low bulk?
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acctx
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:23 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 2:37 pm Posts: 239
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RickI wrote: How many folks on here have worn flotation aids for years? A lot more than wear helmets from what I see out there. I've been wearing impact vests for at least 12 years kiting with no serious problems yet. On the contrary they can help with deepwater repairs, swimming into shore with wind shifts or if it dies altogether in addition to if things really go south. Can they tangle stuff, sure I suppose they could. Just like harnesses, harness hook, buckles, foostraps, bar winders, feet, legs, arms, hands, heads, etc. etc.. What is the benefit vs. the risk in the actual accident experience? There is a good deal of experience out there with these safety aids unlike back in 2002. There is less need for reasoning absent actual experience in short. So, what has your experience been over the years with appropriate flotation aids for kiting?
Bigdog I've been using a Neil Pryde High Hook Vest for some years. My lines get caught on the bungee at the back of my footstraps way more often than on my impact vest.
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Marty
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:32 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:38 am Posts: 320 Location: Utah
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Our enforcing division of Government has stated, that they know the difference between impact vests and Coast Guard approved PFD.
The response from the Utah Boating Coordinator
1) Kiteboards have been determined by the US Coast Guard to be a vessel and therefore are required to comply with life jacket laws. (see attached kiteboard determination)
2) Sailboards (not kiteboards) have been exempted in federal law from the life jacket carriage requirement. (see attached 33cfr175)
3) State laws concerning life jackets cannot be less restrictive than the federal law, therefore we cannot exempt kiteboards from Utah life jacket requirements.
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Laughingman
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Post subject: Re: PFD's required now. Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:07 pm |
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Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:35 pm Posts: 903 Location: Southwestern Ontario
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In Canada our transport ministry has also deemed us to be vessels which could have meant the following equipment was required on-board
Life jacket or PFD for each person on board Buoyant heaving line 15 m (50') Reboarding device / ladder Hand-bailer OR bilge pump Sound signalling device
Fortunately we were able to be grouped in with the windsurfers who have been exempted from all but the PFD and the whistle. They have also acknowledged that there are no certified PFD's that are suitable for our use so there is some holes in the the law but basically they are saying wear something that keeps you floating with the upper half of your chest out of the water and you are okay. As much as I disagree with any regulations I'm pretty sure this will be the way of our future unless we start thinking and acting as one organization.
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