I would not steal the other thread "Re: What is the perfect wind?" - so just took the last post from Saami for a new thread, as this topic is really interesting :



Yes, I am talking side-maybe-slightly-on, or clean sideshore waveriding in light winds where you are really aggressive with the big kite (12m2), even more than with normal wavekites, in order to ride DTL

Of course it is only my opinion as I wrote - but really curious now if you are talking about the same conditions Supaez - as I have never seen anyone do this (not even anyone being ABLE to do this) in winds around 12 knots and hot
Btw - what linelengths do you use with this size for DTL riding ?

I havent even seen anyone doing it even with kites smaller than 19m2, say 15 or 17m2 if 75-80kg winds.
So I might dare and go a little further and say, it is the opinion of MANY and not only me

I do not say it does not happen - but would like to see HOW it is done ?

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Anyone got video where you see active sideshore DTL riding with a 17-19m2 in winds where this size is needed ?

Maybe you Supaez ? Would be easy when out so often in these winds - just a minute with a videocam from the beach so one can see the kite and rider.

Still amazed how this is done, as I am pretty experienced myself at riding waves DTL with ridiculous big kites in low winds (according to others) - but above 12 or 14m2 for 75-80kg do not work for me nor any of my fellow kiters, but 12-14 SLE is possible for some, yes, but on the limit of not being an option at all IMO.

Looking forward to see, and learn


I have tried borrowing friends big kites or big foils (a 19m2 silverarrow too), and it was possible to ride DTL pretty okay in some cases.
BUT - those days I could do the very same (just way faster) and still go upwind fine with my 12m2, so of course that does not count when sufficient wind, as the last you would want to do, is go out with a kite bigger than needed in waves

Meaning, if I can ride waves with a 10m2 kite on a given day, and I took a 17m2, it would be easy to ride waves with the 17 (but not much fun compared to the 10).

But if the wind was lower so it was only possible to ride and go slightly upwind with a 17 and not smaller kites, it would not work for DTL waveriding for me, simply because the windspeed is too low, as Saami also points out

Rider weight is an important factor, for me it is 77-78kg.
And no, I dont do downwinders either...

Peter

Well I've had fun in waves with a huge kite. Most recently with the fly. Not swinging the kite too much but letting it sit. Id say in light wind the waves cannot be too big as the board speed increases.

I do think it works fine with fish type board and good sized kites. I'm figuring these days id rather be powered and use a bigger kite than have a constant struggle to go up wind

Mmmhhh where is the problem?
Today in the waves at our reef with on shore conditions there was me on a Switchblade 14m, a Dino 16m, another SB 16m, a Zephyr 17m and an Edge 17m...
Is not ideal but can be done and is still quite fun, actually quality of waves is always better when wind is light as they are smoother...
Here is a pic of myself from last year with perfect side shore wind on a Switchblade 14m...
I have been asking for a specific light wind wave kite for years as we get plenty of waves but the wind only 11-13 knots... The guys at CAB are working on it..
Bye Jankie

The problem is, that in winds where an SLE kite at, or bigger than, 15m2 is needed for the average weight kiter, the wind speed is so low - that it is difficult or impossible to ride Down The Line without you overtaking the kite so lines go slack

Of course you can do one bottom turn and cutback, with ANY big kitesize (meaning in really low wind).
This is always possible, only a matter of technique.

But connecting them into a more fluid DTL ride I simply can not see (have never seen) happening in these low winds...

I did not say you could'nt have fun in this light wind with huge kites - sure you can


In fact I would postulate that you can ride waves in LESS wind, with smaller kites
Of course you can not go upwind, so for many of us not an option, nope.

But the smaller kite can be repositioned and turned way way better - thus also resulting in ability to "sit" much better in the air and not fall down nor get slack lines.
And when waves are huge, the one-step-smaller-than-huge kites really excel - as you dont get too much power when speeding down the face - and still agile so you can "ride" the wave DTL, getting the peak power exactly where you want it, and get rid of it when you dont want it.
With a huge kite you can not put the deliberate peaks into your ride, nor avoid the "pull" when speeding down a huge face.

This is known by us all I think, and nothing new to this - and the reason why many love downwinders, as they can choose a much better kite (smaller) for the task in really light wind.

Downwinders are not for me though, only occasionally at new spots.

And we all have fun being out in waves, yes I agree.
But the fun really starts when going DTL in a connected and more fluid way IMO, and that is when we begin to call it "waveriding", right ?

Choosing a bigger board that glides well is of course often necessary - but it wont help much regarding the problem when you ride WITH the wind in really low winds

But it can enable you to choose a smaller kite, and still go great upwind, thus a win-win situation

Maybe it is just me But above is how I think it works for most wavekitesurfers !

Peter

First of all thank you Peter for starting a new post

Many many times on sideshore to side side off winds 9 to 13 knots (gusty ) waves are supa clean

The waves do not have to be big....2-3-4-5 ft... you can see surfers out having a good time

Having a large fast turning modern tube kite (mine XR219) with lots of depower really is the key

So much board speed is generated DTL that apparent wind reaches over 20 knots in the kite

Being experienced with such kite size is also crucial ( this is my environment after all )

Knowing how to make the kite sit and float when lines are nearly slack is all practice

The timing up and down the wave combined with kite's lines angle over water is a must

People waveride with "huge" surfboards all the time successfully (SUP'S)..as an example

Very often in the surf zone with such wind direction the "drift"...longshore current goes with the wind

This basically will kill the resulting wind power effective in the kite

Having the large kite compensates efficiently against that problem

Sorry i have no video at this time

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I am fully with you regarding the view that it requires experience and technical high level, A LOT, to be able to ride with big kites in low wind.

But I dont agree about the apparent wind, not at all !

If you go DTL you go with the wind in tight turns - you actually decrease the power the faster you go.
In order to avoid this, you need a kite that accelerates the most and the fastest from side to side.
This is NOT a feature the huge kites got, not at all in fact.

The smaller the better - as they can turn faster and generate more "peak" apparent wind power with very little loss - eventhough they of course pull less when going straight out/upwind.
They also accelerate faster across the window because of their lower weight - so here they can sometimes pull MORE than a bigger and slower kite, when you ride vmg downwind with almost the same speed as the wind that is.

So I can only see disadvantages in choosing the biggest kite there is, when riding waves DTL

Agree that they are needed for going upwind, and that you can learn to ride waves with bigger and bigger kites in less and less wind, the better rider you are - that is true

But I still can not see DTL waveriding in sideshore happening with the biggest possible kite there is - at conditions where a smaller kite would leave you unable to go upwind at all

Peter

You ask if is possible and the reply is YES it is...
It is ideal NOT of course!
BUT in Indo we get so many days with nice waves and light wind so you learn how to use what you get!
IN side on shore wind you can loop the kite even if big to keep the speed on it going down the line OR you make it stall while making your bottom and top turn then recover deep in the zone to regain pull.. I can do about 2 bottom and cut back with 1 stall...
Same for On Shore riding... A kite that drift well is essential.

Last year during a trip to a famous wave spot wind was light and we were pretty much only 2 guys with 14m riding... There were people trying to follow on small kites and 9-10m kite but reality is that they could not keep well up wind and took them 3-4 tacks to just get back in the wave were we were able to do in 1... Even in the waves they had to keep flying the kite up and down at super speed when I was able to park the kite and just ride the wave... And I'm not talking about 1 turn..
So again it is possible and people are doing it every day.. I haven't find the ideal kite but we are getting closer...
PS. in 15-16 knots if you are 100 kilos + you still need a big ass kite if you want to ride as a 10 meter is not taking you anywhere.
Bye Jankie

Yes, bigger riders bigger kites of course.

And if the kite is parked, it is a totally different ballgame, agree with that Jankie

But for side or side-onshore working the kite aggressively very low, I think the next biggest kitesizes work better, no matter what windspeeds !

What do you think ? (in such conditions and not when parked)

By the way, truly amazed that you can ride with the kite parked when the wind is not side or slight offshore, in such superlight winds ?

Maybe we could turn it around, and say that if you ride with kites around 9 max 10m2, and lower, it IS ideal
Meaning, whether you ride with a 9 or 7 or 5 - it is close to being ideal in all situations

And when bigger, 12 and above for the 80kg rider, it changes by a huge margin and is a very different ballgame

This explains why a 10m2 is typically the max size chosen by most wavekiters (correlated to the standard weight of course)

Peter

True waveriding DTL.... side... to side side off ...to side off wind as be covered fully

Let's talk about riding on waves with (9-12 knots max) onshore and side on winds with 3-5 ft waves

Here is the blueprint....lots of whitewater...close out sets...very difficult to get on the outside...drift..

Even the best experienced riders cannot make it out on 11-12-13-14m kites

Only ones making it out on their best specialized for conditions surfboards directionals have:

17m-18m-19m modern huge 2012 fast turning tube kites

I have had many great sessions riding along the wave face and doing fast turns w/onshore winds

Toeside...heelside...aerials downloop spin transitions....getting air landing back on face etc..

Huge kite does not mean slow anymore...heck i can make that 19 of mine turn fast like my 12

So why put up a 12 and work at it ....when a fast powerful 19 is way better for the job at hand

To make a large kite turn fast is an acquired skill
To get to that point you have to ride the big kites very very often in LW surf
I have been out 23 times since May 1st on the 19M....all in every kind of surf & barely rideable wind

Power is your best ally where i kite
I like to trow jumps when i am out there.....i like to ride on waves and go all over the place at will

I never like to be limited....it has been said..if Supa cannot surfride today....no sense even trying

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