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 Post subject: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:27 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Ram Airs are inferior to Inflatables at Relaunching, particularly when you REALLY need an urgent Relaunch, e.g. in Surf.
Ram airs can be VERY difficult to relaunch e.g.

It took a long time for the guy in the video to relaunch his Flysurfer and the kite almost became completely un-relaunchable on two occasions through bow-tying. If only ONE wave had landed on it, he would have had to swim in, dragging his waterlogged kite with him. While it is always a gamble if a kite gets caught by a wave, at it has a fighting chance if it is an inflatable.

Some rams can reverse launch, but so what... a lot of inflatables can reverse launch. Rams can launch directly downwind in the water, but so what... so can a lot of inflatables. For intermediates and above, relaunching should not even be considered in the equation because a) they won't be dropping the kite much anyway and b) Relaunching inflatables is EASY. Commonly, ram airs will not relaunch properly because of twisting, bridle tangles, or waterlogging. These aren't such big problems with inflatables. Check out these links about ram airs sinking or becoming un-relaunchable:
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2358958&p=608890#p608890
eg viewtopic.php?t=2359156&p=617396
eg viewtopic.php?t=2358602&p=704984

ALL ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged >45 minutes, un-relaunchable and certainly unable to support body weight.
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2358958&p=608890#p608890
eg viewtopic.php?t=2359156&p=617396
eg viewtopic.php?t=2358602&p=704984

The following is an example of "diraklib's" experience with ram airs in wind dropouts:
diraklib wrote:
"the SA-19 is huge and can whack you silly if you let it get down wind of you in a low wind launch. It is downright scary - be ready with the QR at all times if not up and riding!!! I can't say I agree with claims that you can ride the SA-19 in anything lower than a steady 8 knots. I made a personal choice to not ride the SA-19 any more. It went down twice in lulls and managed to bow-tie on the way down - there was no way to relaunch. I was not as lucky as others that self rescued. My kite was full of water by the time I dragged my very tired and frustrated a$$ to shore. It sounds simple, "wrap the lines around the bar, fold the kite in half, roll it up on your board and paddle in"... noooo... there are lines everywhere under water that wrap around your feet as you are trying to manipulate the kite. You just pray that a gust won't pop the kite up and slice of an appendage. The kite ... is just too scary when it goes down. My attitude now is - if my LEI won't fly, I shouldn't be on the water. Anyone interested in a slightly used SA2-19m??? Cheap???"
For the full epiphany, checkout viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2360979&start=40

The following is an example of FredBGG's experience with a line failure:
FredBGG wrote:
The other day I had a front line fail.
Wind was slightly off shore...
I really needed a tow to the beach.
I had the kite safely on the 5th line folded in half (flysurfer Foil)
I waved down two kiters.... both expert judging by their riding.
Both refused to help.
One even yelled if you can't relaunch it's your problem.
Anyway after a difficult ordeal in the surf and current I got back to the beach.
I had to rest a bit but my board was still out there.
For the full admission viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2362065
The problem here isn't with the other kiters, it's with Fred's choice of kite. If Fred had an inflatable, he would have been able to "self-rescue" by grabbing the tips and "sailing" to shore. The other kiters refusing to help is understandable: Fred opted for less safe equipment. It's his problem and he shouldn't impose on others to make up for his equipment deficiencies. Also, towing a ram air to shore is like towing a sleeping bag full of water - difficult and dangerous.


Ignore the ram air lies.
And constant propaganda.
Of the lesser kites.


Last edited by Pump me up on Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:59 pm 
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I have no strong feelings one way or another in the inflatable vs ram air debate. However, according to PMU's post it seems that 45 seconds is a really bad relaunch for ram-airs. I might have to give them a lot more consideration! I'm a pretty experienced kiter and I've spent a lot longer than that relaunching inflatables. And I've swam inflatables in.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:35 am 
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tmcfarla wrote:
I have no strong feelings one way or another in the inflatable vs ram air debate. However, according to PMU's post it seems that 45 seconds is a really bad relaunch for ram-airs. I might have to give them a lot more consideration! I'm a pretty experienced kiter and I've spent a lot longer than that relaunching inflatables. And I've swam inflatables in.

I don't know how many have switched to foils, thanks to PMU awareness campaign. He is actually an undercover FS agent. His arguments are so irrational that they convince to the contrary.
In nearly ten years and lots of riding, there are only four occasions I could not relaunch on my own. Twice still managed to keep an ear out of the water to sail back to the beach. Relaunch time: average 10 seconds, 30 being a long relaunch, and one minute the exceptionally long. The average time is getting shorter and shorter as technology improves.
Nothing beats the latest generation of Flysurfer kites relaunch-wise. It's something hard to admit for the prejudiced.
I want to see PMU :dumbo: do that with an inflato:



There is also a video (but I can't find it) of Armin launching after walking from the beach in deep water with the kite in the bag.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:53 am 
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PMU obviously is one of those guys sitting on the beach going "Foils are so crap" while the foil riders are out riding, having fun :roll: I hear the envy talking every time PMU preaches his propaganda.

...

Relaunch in that first video is well done - VERY little wind there! And note that it was sitting on it's TE yet relaunched easily!

The second one - the one PMU thinks is an example of the poor relaunchability of foils :lol: - is pilot error that puts the kite LE down on the water at 0:15 ... and despite the "waves" it's in the air 35 seconds later - with what appear to be no attempt by the pilot to do anything for the first 15 seconds of that! Not very difficult at all ...

I can recount numerous stories of the LEI guys here drifting into shore being unable to execute a simple LE-down relaunch ... and heaven can only help them if it's TE-down! And that's in decent wind and the "waves" on our lake here - shudder to think what'd happen in light wind or with waves that actually break ...

It is, however, true what PMU says - "Ram airs can be VERY difficult to relaunch" ... but hardly ever :thumb: once and counting. I've had more failures to relaunch with my LEIs - and I fly them less.


Last edited by Kamikuza on Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:54 am 
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alexrider wrote:
I want to see PMU :dumbo: do that with an inflato:


I don't think PMU knows how to kite at all. Has anyone ever seen her kite?


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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:46 am 
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I rode flysurfer foils for quite a few years and now ride inflatos.

I would love to have an inflato that re-launches like a flysurfer.



All I had to do was turn the bar all the way without even looking at the kite.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:03 am 
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Impressive. This has convinced me to try a foil - thanks PMU.


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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:55 am 
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Location: Como Lake - Italy
I rode foils only a few times, so these are really my two cents. The problem I experieced with foils in very light wind when they suddenly fall. In my home spot, in very light wind days, sometimes the wind really goes to zero for 1 minute or so. When this happen, both foils and inflatables suddenly fall. In this cases, my inflatable, since it's far heavier than a foil, fall directly into the water with no line tangling and I just have to wait for a gust to relaunch (when possible, that means about 7 knots for my Core 17). When a foil falls with no wind, being very light, it's common that its lines roll over it and became completely tangled. At that point, it's not that easy to relaunch.
The other big problem with foils in very light wind is when the wind completely stops. With an inflatable, you just get your kite and swim attached to your little floating boat. With a foil, you have 20 sqm of tissue to carry home with you!


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 Post subject: Re: Foil relaunch. I feel so sorry for PMU
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:37 am 
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pmaggie wrote:
I rode foils only a few times, so these are really my two cents. The problem I experieced with foils in very light wind when they suddenly fall. In my home spot, in very light wind days, sometimes the wind really goes to zero for 1 minute or so. When this happen, both foils and inflatables suddenly fall. In this cases, my inflatable, since it's far heavier than a foil, fall directly into the water with no line tangling and I just have to wait for a gust to relaunch (when possible, that means about 7 knots for my Core 17). When a foil falls with no wind, being very light, it's common that its lines roll over it and became completely tangled. At that point, it's not that easy to relaunch.
The other big problem with foils in very light wind is when the wind completely stops. With an inflatable, you just get your kite and swim attached to your little floating boat. With a foil, you have 20 sqm of tissue to carry home with you!

You're right - that IS an issue and has caught me out ... once. Ever. Total drop to zero wind, never picked up and I had to swim in. Learned me to keep an eye on the horizon in VERY light winds ... I got over-confident cos I was still riding upwind while everyone else was walking ;)

Tissue? Nope, but the material is lighter than the water it displaces so although I managed to pump a bunch of water INTO the kite, it just floated on the surface. Getting it out of the water was a bit of a hassle though ...

Quirks - foils and LEIs have their own ... I'm happy with a kite that stays in the sky longer and easier.


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