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 Post subject: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't work
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:46 pm
Posts: 64
Ok,
i'm writing from a wonderful chiringuito in front of Prea Beach, Jericoacoara, NE Brazil.

Just out of the water after my first deathloop experience, and boy yes i'm still a bit under shock.

WHAT HAPPENED:
Was happily riding on my 9m Rebel 2012, wind blowing 25+kn, perfect conditions albeit i maybe was a bit overpowered.
From what i remember i missed a jump with a few rotations, landed without board, and the nightmare started. Kite has started to do well timed loops, sending me each time 10m skywards and then down in the water, again and again. Didn't panic and started thinking "ok, this is what a deathloop is". Tried to understand what was wrong, and had the half a second time to stop look at the bar only to notice that one of the lines was twisted around it, then another loop, then another look at the bar, tried for a second to untangle the lines, another loop, i was "ok, this is it, time to release and see the magical 5th line safety do its work".
Released on the chicken loop, and here i am finding myself with the bar 5 meters up in the sky, totally powered just as it was before, and kite keeping doing its loops. Now i'm in troubles, kite is keeping on looping, i keep on flying'n'drinking, kite is full powered and i have no many options left. Didn't panic, made my assessement and decided that i was worth more than my new kite. So pushed the release, set the kite free to fly and was finally free.
Managed to swim ashore, guys from the kite school went like bolts to get my kite, recouped my board, they fixed the lines, 10 mins later i was back riding my way upwind to the starting point, albeit without the leash as it was stuck and coudln't fix it while on the beach.

MY ASSESSEMENT:
The 5th line safety does not work. It's designed not to work. Why? Because it pass through the bar, and if the lines tangle around the bar, blocking it, so is the 5th line blocked. And guess what, it's exactly when your bar is stuck in full power that you need to release. Now, was it my fault? I think it's a no. I've been kiting for years, and this is the very first time i have a deathloop experience, as it's the very first time my bar becomes stucked after one back line is tangled, blocking the bar i in full power without being able to depower it. Actually it's my second time this happens to me, the first time it happened was the first time i tried my new Norths, a few months ago, with much lighter winds. In that case, i was able to fix the tangle while in the water without releasing, as the wind was light. No way to do it with today's wind.
Now, let's look at the numbers. I've flown years with other kite brands, all four lines, and never had a similar experience. Out of 7-8 sessions spent on my new Norths, this is the second time i have a bar tangle, and the this time it ended with a total release of the kite.
I love how the kite flies, i love how it jumps, performance wise i believe it's the best kite i've ever flown. But the fifth line as a safety measure is a freaking mistake, period. It's one more line, it increases tangle chances, and it just does not work exactly in the situation you need it most to work. Safety should be totally independent from bar and other lines, it should be designed to work exactly when the other lines are totally messed up.
When today i pushed the chicken loop i lost any chance to fix the situation, the only thing i could do after that was either be superman and crawl back to the bar while the kite was looping and untangle the line blocking the fifth, either release.
The positive side of it is that the kite today while looping took a couple of mega-crashes, and it's still there, and obviously i'm very lucky there were two beach guys who got my kite before it disintegrated.
Had it happened in 90% of the spots where i kited before, today i would have just lost my 1,000eur+ brand nerw kite.

Very pissed, and yes, still scared. Deathloops are not fun i must say, took a big beat today.

Sorry for the rant, but it wasn't nice.

Regards,

Vanni


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:49 am
Posts: 151
Location: The Gorge/La Ventana
Vanni, I feel your pain. I too have a Rebel quiver - love the kites and the bar also.

However, I've had a similar "situation" where the trim/depower and 5th (safety) lines somehow became looped around the bar during a fall. Fortunately, the kite was on the water and there was no "deathloop" but I was being dragged downwind.

My point is that the 5th line was effectively disabled because it was looped around the bar and therefore would not allow the bar to slide up the 5th line and depower the kite. I eventually managed to "un-loop" the center (through-the-bar) lines and all was well.

Your assessment that "Safety should be totally independent from bar and other lines, it should be designed to work exactly when the other lines are totally messed up." sounds good but how the ^$^#%#@ could that be done? I'd love to hear any suggestions on how this can be accomplished!


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:05 pm
Posts: 474
Location: Maui
I don't know north but my older Naish kites had the safety line on the outside of the bar. Maybe a little safer "maybe" but then you can't really spin the bar.


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:48 pm
Posts: 1230
vannibombonato wrote:
Released on the chicken loop, and here i am finding myself with the bar 5 meters up in the sky, totally powered just as it was before, and kite keeping doing its loops.


Which line did you bar slide 5meters up? the 5th line? the center line? the back line?

Is your safety attached to the 5th line? I would think it would be and that when you hit the QR the kite is meant to flag on the 5th line? But in your case hitting the QR somehow caused the bar to slide 5m up some other line and stick there?

I'm baffled by this. Please educate me ... I don't own a North or even seen one for that matter. I have seen some 5th line bars however and I can't picture this scenario you describe.


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 8:33 pm
Posts: 95
vannibombonato wrote:
The 5th line safety does not work. It's designed not to work. Why? Because it pass through the bar, and if the lines tangle around the bar, blocking it, so is the 5th line blocked.



Can you draw it or something? Dont get it. All safety systems are fed throu the bar, so it would happen with all of them if the bar is stuck, wouldent it?


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:58 pm 
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frankm1960 wrote:
vannibombonato wrote:
Released on the chicken loop, and here i am finding myself with the bar 5 meters up in the sky, totally powered just as it was before, and kite keeping doing its loops.


Which line did you bar slide 5meters up? the 5th line? the center line? the back line?

Is your safety attached to the 5th line? I would think it would be and that when you hit the QR the kite is meant to flag on the 5th line? But in your case hitting the QR somehow caused the bar to slide 5m up some other line and stick there?

I'm baffled by this. Please educate me ... I don't own a North or even seen one for that matter. I have seen some 5th line bars however and I can't picture this scenario you describe.


Sounds like the distances are generally exagerated (being lofted 10 meters skyward each time the kite loops is a little unbelievable). I'm thinking the bar just went to the end of the leash (1 meter) and the fifth line did not pull thorugh the chicken loop at all.

That sounds like a bad situation though, glad you're OK! So was your situation just like the one unbob described? All of the lines that pass through the bar got wrapped around the bar?

If that's what happened, I don't see what the fifth line or North has to do with it. Any below the bar leash attachment system from any manufacturer would have the same issue, right?. The only thing that would have worked would have been attaching to a single rear line, but then you can't spin the bar. Leashing to a single OS handle on the rear line is the safest, but it's annoying if you want to loop the kite or do any rotations.


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:22 am
Posts: 240
I'll add that any flag-out system tends to get disabled once the kite has looped a number of times. From your description, it sounds like the kite had looped more than five times by the time you tried to release. At that point - after five loops or more - the lines are often so tightly wrapped around eachother that the flag-out line cannot slide. That could be the explanation for why the kite remained powered up after you tried to release.

That isn't something that is unique to 5th line safety systems. If you had used a 4-line system, your flag-out line would probably have been just as disabled after five or six loops.

The biggest lesson, I think, is to try to stop death-loops early. Once the kite has looped many times, flagging out might not be an option anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:58 am
Posts: 334
Glad to know your ok,your QR worked your secondary release worked your 5th line failed to operate as it was tangled,lucky you were an experianced kiter and knew how and you were able to open secondary release,also very lucky lines did not tangle in harness hook you could have been in real trouble beginer kitesurfer would have been in real trouble this situation can happen with any modern kite no safety works if lines are twisted or tangled on bar,thats why we need to develop QR spreader bar or harness its safest option every week this deathloop comes up its time kite and harness companies fix this problem,i emailed several harness companies about QR spreader bar or harness QR not one of them have got back to me.TONY


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:41 pm
Posts: 1160
Get a Fuse, almost the same kite, 4 line simplicity!


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 Post subject: Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:47 pm
Posts: 2548
Clear this up for us....which "single" line got wrapped around your bar end

I would imagine it would have the be one of the back lines in order to spin the kite like that

Were the "bar end floats" "low to the bar" with minimum gap to prevent such a back line wrap ?

We all need more details....the suspense is killing us

Sure looks like the bar slid up the 5th line exactly like it was supposed to when you QR


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