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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:03 pm
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Location: Ontario Canada
I am 22 with no history of knee problems even with snowboarding and wakeboarding. Yet during my first summer of kiting I find my knees very sore both after a session and the next day. Since I live in an area where strong winds are somewhat rare when i go out to kite I usually am out for 3-4 hours. I feel the length of my sessions may have something to do with my pain but like expressed earlier, i ride a fairly big, flat TT (cab. rival 145) in pretty heavy chop. I got this board as a beginner board bc of its size and heard it was good in light wind (usually sub15k in my aarea) but now Im thinking I should have gotten something better for riding in the chop.

I feel that both these factors contribute to my sore knees, or it may be my poor form as I am a beginner. What do you guys think?


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:46 pm
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This is interesting to read everyone's unique knee problem. I also suffer from knee pain almost ten years now. I worked it really hard from being in military for 6 years. I never tore any ligaments or blew my kneecap, but hiking for days with 50-60% of your body weight can seriously take its toll.

After my service I stopped running and doing any sports that require a lot of running on hard ground (basketball, soccer, tennis). I've tried many different types of physiotherapy, but nothing seems to help. Ironically kiteboarding and snowboarding are the most therapeutic to my knees. It's remarkable. If i go 2 weeks without kiting I can seriously feel my knees getting weaker and they start having cracking sounds.

TraceyS had some good links for knee braces, but they can get expensive. I recommend getting a super flexi board that can easily eat up the chop and make it easier on the knees. Also, a directional is good because they generally have larger surface area than TT and the vibrations are absorbed more by the board and less with your knee.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:11 am 
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My knee pain is t the back of the knee (right only) and I suspect tendonitis, so in the end lack of stretching before and after kiting. I notice that it gets worse when i working hard to go upwind , so maybe too much twist in the knee. I am stretching now before and after going out and it really helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:46 am 
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Location: Malibu
Twin tips dirty little secret......

Really bad for your knees.

The position of the straps and the body rotation simply put rotational stress on the knees.
The chop then does the rest.

The industry, in the same manner it does not care about safety, could not give a damn about your knees.

Go strapless most of the time.... then just use a twin tip for brief jumping sessions..... or better still learn to jump strapless. 6ft strapless is more fun than 12ft dangle in straps. I even moved towards somewhat delicate surfboards to force me to land smooth.

My knees were suffering on twin tips.

I don't ride them anymore. No problem doing other demanding sports since ditching the twin tips and straps. Six hour sessions no problem at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:36 am 
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My 2 cents,

1) Go to a specialist and check it out
2) Warm up properly before each session
3) stretch out properly after each session.

PS: potentially get a softer board ;), no need for a rock hard board...

Good luck,
Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Have a specialist (ortho surgeon or rehab doctor) check out your knee as not all doctors can perform a proper diagnosis. If said specialist thinks that there may be something there that merits a closer look, then an MRI will pretty much tell the whole story.

I tore my ACL and the ortho diagnosed this pretty quickly just by manipulating my knee but an MRI further revealed a small meniscus tear. I decided to have a reconstruction and did my rehab religiously. 6 months post-op, the ortho cleared me to kite again.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Location: Malibu
caveman wrote:
Have a specialist (ortho surgeon or rehab doctor) check out your knee as not all doctors can perform a proper diagnosis. If said specialist thinks that there may be something there that merits a closer look, then an MRI will pretty much tell the whole story.

I tore my ACL and the ortho diagnosed this pretty quickly just by manipulating my knee but an MRI further revealed a small meniscus tear. I decided to have a reconstruction and did my rehab religiously. 6 months post-op, the ortho cleared me to kite again.


You can have your knees checked out all you want.
Both my father and brother are spinal and ortho doctors, world class with international soccer players and heads of state among their patients.

I showed them both my twin tips and what the stance is like in them, as well as two strap surfboards.
Both told me that they are a time bomb for your knees, even if your knees have no previous problems.
The rotational stress combined with the knee movement to absorb chop and landings is just WRONG. It's the dirty little secret of the industry.

One really needs to add strapless skills to ones kiting.
I know that there are certain kinds of fun that require straps. What I am getting to is DON'T use a board with straps all the time. You will pay for it in the long run.
One of the "gifts" the twin tip will give you is premature arthritis..... pain even when you sleep.

If you look at the development of boards you can see that something is wrong. They have added flex, added flex tips, added super plush foot pads... developed straps with laces..... all in an attempt to reduce the torture.

Doing sports your muscles are supposed to be tiered, not your joints.

Now apart from the constraints and bad ergonomics of twin tips and the twin tip stance (as well as to a lesser extent two strap directionals) the industry is going in the wrong direction with boards in my opinion.

Boards should be expendable and way less expensive. They should be weak enough to give before your knees do in a crash or bad landing. They should also be expendable from a safety point of view so you can let your board go if it's heading to the rocks or you are simply trying to rescue yourself.

The industry on the other hand is getting more and more expensive with claims of bomber build of there boards. Better, stronger ... bla bla bla... in the mean time they are just killing the knees of their customers.

I remember having these discussions with other kiters a few years ago and many literally telling me I'm full of s@#t. Those same people have problems today. Some have had very nasty damage and have to resort to riding with knee braces and or keep sessions short, no 2 days in a row kiting etc.

Now I don't want to be a Nanny, but someone has to point this out.

Just look at how often ACL surgery comes up. You can rest assured that if ACL surgery is so common other long term irreversible damage is being done daily.

Some people say that shit happens. That you are going to crash bad sooner or later and that getting hurt is just part of the sport. While there is some truth to that there is another thing that is very important to understand. Due to the very bad ergonomics of the twintip stance and straps in general you stress your knees to the point of rendering them vulnerable. Then what happens is that a crash that should not be a problem explodes your knee because you knee is "pre stressed"

This sport is really addictive, once you are in it you just have to ride, ride and ride. That's the good part, just take the right steps so that you can do it for 30 years :thumb: And come out dancing :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:22 pm 
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yoav_at_blade wrote:
TraceyS had some good links for knee braces, but they can get expensive. I recommend getting a super flexi board that can easily eat up the chop and make it easier on the knees.


Actually a super flexy board can lead to more problems. While is does have a dampening effect it only has it buy bending. lets say you land it hard on the tail. The board will flex , but so will the footpad with the tight strap on it. Keep in mind when you come down hard and edging you foot shoves deep into the strap gripping you foot like crazy. The flex while giving the apearence of suspension it only does so adding rotational or angular torsion to you ankles that in turn destabilize you knees.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Location: Malibu
One thing I left out.... regarding straps. When you lose your board with straps nearly always one foot comes out first. The leg that is still in the other strap is at great risk and gets stressed immensely.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad knee – advice please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:34 pm 
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Location: Malibu
Regarding flex.

Flex is over rated when it comes to safety.

Certain flex characteristics really do make a board work from a handling point of view or riding sensation. But from a shock absorption point of view this is a very primitive approach.

Some boards have so much flex that they become mushy and unreactive on the water.

A type of board that has a very unique flex pattern is the Aviso carbon fiber construction.
These are hollow carbon fiber boards with very very rigid rails, but heaps of central hull and deck flex/compression. This results in true suspension. Think about it... no dirtbikes are made with flexy frames.... they have suspension.

Here is what the flex pattern of an Aviso looks like:

http://www.avisosurf.com/FEA.html

This unique flex design I find is prefect for kiting. Way better upwind than traditional flexy boards. Best chop absorbtion. Then the cherry on the cake is how these boards store energy in the bottom turn. Hull flexes in and springs out as you release your fast bottom turn. Also when charging down a face the hull is flatter and when you load the board carving hard is turns more concave.... damn cool :thumb:
I also like the fact that design royalties go to the original shapers rather than the steal and copy business model of most kite board companies.

Unfortunately they are very expensive so they are not an ideal solution. However they can be found used... actually quite a good buyer used market.

I buy mine used and even damaged. Because they are carbon fiber many think they are hard to repair ... actually not the case. I do my repairs to make them look like crap so I can leave them on the beach.

Best of all is that potato chip designs are strong enough to handle my 230 lbs.
Other cool thing is that Aviso does not design boards. They licence the very beast surf board designs.


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