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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:29 am 
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I'm actually fine with North bar price increase from 2012 to 2013, as the new bar seems to have a ton of improvements, including better lines (I wonder if they fixed the depower wear, if not - well, no comment).

However the thing is they were increasing the price every year, even were no changes were made at all (like 2011->2012, only color changed, and still went up by ~40euro), so the current price is already sky high. This is almost 50% higher then Ozone Bar.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:02 am 
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9 pages later and I see that obviously this is an interesting topic, not only for me.
But between all the noise (as usual on kiteforum) lets get down to the main discussion points here:

Inflation
Inflation is justifiable up to maybe 3 percent, but not 22% (450 to 550 USD in one year)

Production costs
Labour costs in China have gone up, yes, but please be real, we are talking a few percent of the total retail price. A Bar incl. lines will cost approx. 180 USD incl. material, labour and even shipping when produced at a small volume. Im not pulling numbers out of the air - if you look at what a bar costs to a distributor and at what margin he then sells it to a retailer (which btw is the same for many products except textiles - even larger marings) you can do the reverse math easily.
Just take an iphone as a comparison. A product that needs loads more R&D and high tech than a bar and is produced in China. What does it retail for now, around 650USD unsubsidised? True cost of production (not incl. R&D) was estimated around 190USD back in 2010 (http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... t-usd18751) Two years later the production cost is even lower due to produced volume, improved production system, less faulty units, etc.
Of course the iphone is sold in millions and a bar is sold in maybe hundred thousands, but can you really compare R&D and material costs and tell me with a straight face, the bars are not overpriced?

How does a company like switch make a profit
Easy, because the cost of a bar is no where near what the big brands want you to believe. You dont really think they are making a loss, do you?

Make your own
Thats not the point here. What I wrote was that this affects the sport negatively since you wont expect from a newcomer to build his own bar! Start mountainbiking? Sure build your own bike first. Yeah right.

Justifiable increase due to many new features
As I wrote before, now a selling point is "durable plastic" instead of aluminium or similar metals, effectively bringing down production cost. Thats the new feature you are paying for... errr wait a second, how does that work as a plus for the consumer here?!?

So then, are you willing to pay 620 USD for 2014 bars? Thats what we are looking at right now if the trend keeps up.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:38 pm 
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mark van haze wrote:
9 pages later and I see that obviously this is an interesting topic, not only for me.
[...]
So then, are you willing to pay 620 USD for 2014 bars? Thats what we are looking at right now if the trend keeps up.


Exactly... the new prices are shit crazy. I've been planing on updating my 2011 Rebels to 2013 and adding a Dyno to the quiver, but the prices are soooo high, I've scraped my plans and will keep my old gear. Was even planning on getting an extra 2013 bar. Well, it's not going to happen with prices like these.

Improvements OK, new price plan: HelllooooOOOooOOOooo..... Moon calling North... Moon calling North. It's an economic depression, you are selling luxary items and you're hiking up the prices! :-)

Well at least their marketing department has a set of iron BallZZ ;-).

Meanwhile: Switchkites is looking better and better. They *do* have a good bar....


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:01 pm 
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nike says production costs up 10 to 15`% in china fox news,$350 new trainers,Tony


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:28 pm 
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If not cheap anymore in China, how about India? or? These prices are ridiculous simple. Anyone who thinks the prices are normal well is not normal hehe : Tcomes with a leash that will last for years and is like 440 dollars complete, for me this is doable makes the bar like 375 or so not counting the leash. Do other brands include leash with bar?

One last thought, I ride RRD kites so I am not affiliated in anyway with FOne but thier new Airlite bar which is aswesome comes with a leash that will last for years and is 440 dollars complete, for me this is doable makes the bar like 375 or so not counting the leash. Do other brands include leash with bar? buy what you like ride what you like, their is a price point for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:59 pm 
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tony montana wrote:
nike says production costs up 10 to 15`% in china fox news,$350 new trainers,Tony


Maybe, but he's saying that labor costs are a small fraction of the cost of a bar. So even if that fraction goes up 15% like you say, it only adds, what, 3 - 5% to the total cost. It can't account for the price increases we are seeing.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:30 pm 
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sfpete wrote:
tony montana wrote:
nike says production costs up 10 to 15`% in china fox news,$350 new trainers,Tony


Maybe, but he's saying that labor costs are a small fraction of the cost of a bar. So even if that fraction goes up 15% like you say, it only adds, what, 3 - 5% to the total cost. It can't account for the price increases we are seeing.

Gear is marked up about 3x (manufacturer, distributor, and shop) by the time it hits retail stores verse manufacturing costs. So you can multiply that 3-5% by 3.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:39 pm 
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My point is mainly that yes sure the stuff is expensive, but no one is out to fool us. No one is price gouging and no one is forcing us to buy anything. I am glad companies like Naish has made a cheaper bar that is almost as good as the more expensive one, but I still think that most people that complain isn't looking at real data, and many might not understand entirely how this all ends up being so expensive.

I think comparing a bar the the iPhone is by FAR the worst and most misunderstood example as a comparison to a kite bar...if anything it prove the opposite. No company in the kiteboarding industry have anywhere near the profit margin of Apple. Most are probably around half of the margin that Apple has on its products.

There is no magic here...most of the stuff that we buy on a regular basis has exactly the same calculation...it is just produced on a much much bigger scale, and therefore the price is lower.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:56 pm 
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Simple market economics really. As long as the kiting community demands the latest bells and whistles with their equipment every season, prices will continue to rise. High demand/low supply = rising prices. Conversely, high supply/low demand = falling prices.
If you are happy with last years model, there are some bargains to be sourced.
Are kite companies here to make money? Of course, that is their primary goal and business model.
Kite companies will keep prices high while trying to balance the supply chain. No different than any other market.
Simple.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:12 am 
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dorothyinstead wrote:
Simple market economics really. As long as the kiting community demands the latest bells and whistles with their equipment every season, prices will continue to rise. High demand/low supply = rising prices. Conversely, high supply/low demand = falling prices.
If you are happy with last years model, there are some bargains to be sourced.
Are kite companies here to make money? Of course, that is their primary goal and business model.
Kite companies will keep prices high while trying to balance the supply chain. No different than any other market.
Simple.


Yes simple market economics!! :-)

The funny part is that everytime I see someone explain that if only one company made a bar that everyone used...then they come up with their desired requirements...and they are different from everybody elses...and we're back to square one.

I like that the bar I use does not weight a ton, that it is simple, yet safe. There are a lot of small things I would almost go so far as to say I would not want to be without....but I guess that changes as new technology comes out.

edit: only reason why prices aren't falling now though is that it would make it unsustainable to produce the bars. :-)


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