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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:38 am 
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Is an Ipad 3 that much better than the first one? If you drown out all the hype you realize it works just fine, now what is the price difference? Same for cameras, computers, bicycles, sometime things change alot in a year other times not at all.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:37 am 
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wait, economies of scale? really?

so if i can put my bar together for about $200
1 bar is a pretty small scale

and kite companies are making way more than 1 at a time for $550+
then WTF?
just sayin :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:57 am 
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Defrag wrote:
I'm actually fine with North bar price increase from 2012 to 2013, as the new bar seems to have a ton of improvements, including better lines (I wonder if they fixed the depower wear, if not - well, no comment).

However the thing is they were increasing the price every year, even were no changes were made at all (like 2011->2012, only color changed, and still went up by ~40euro), so the current price is already sky high. This is almost 50% higher then Ozone Bar.


i think the new tech on the 2013 north bar is awesome , i didnt like my 2012 north bar .... however i do believe the $450 price tag for the 2012 was way too high as it was a fairly basic bar with a very basic trim system ... the price increase i can understand , but the price from what it jumped FROM i don't understand


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:15 am 
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Exactly Knotwindy I do the same, sounds like alot of people dont mind paying 550 dollars for a bar, do you get a leash with the bar at least?? I do mind paying that much for a bar :nono: :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:33 am 
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knotwindy wrote:
wait, economies of scale? really?

so if i can put my bar together for about $200
1 bar is a pretty small scale

and kite companies are making way more than 1 at a time for $550+
then WTF?
just sayin :lol:


That is such unbelievable bullshit.

Do you know what economies of scale means?

You can make 1 bar for $200? Same quality as the other bars? Same or better finish? Post the details please.
Before you do, did you remember to test safety? Did you remember to calculate in time spent? Knowledge used? Are you using ANY kite specific parts?


I don't think anyone disagree it is expensive, but to say that to compare a hokey pokey frankenbar to a well designed and finished production bar is nonsensical.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:35 am 
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Billy B. wrote:

The new North bar is adjustable for width on the fly, has a new depower cleat, rope, and stopper ball, lines are new, outside line trim adjustments are new, new floats, bar ends, and grip. Roto head construction, hole materail and conection points for the roto head. How is this just a new color for the new year and not new innovation?

seems like North has delevered what people expect with a price increase, a new product with new features.... and now the 300 dollar switch bar is a copy of the old north bar...........

Bummer that kite gear cost so much..... I agree.


I also agree that it's a drag kite gear costs so much.... But it seems to me on this thread and a few others of late there's been a fair amount of criticism of this brand in particular and it seems a bit agenda driven. Not sure where all that is coming from, when there are a few other premium brands with products at a similar price point. The innovations and changes that Billy mentioned above require new design and parts and testing. Are there any other 2013 bars with as many changes this season? (I'm asking, I don't know.)

Some say the bar is "over-engineered", that's personal preference. One reason a lot of people love that rig is just because it's so carefully engineered, year over year. There are some other bars out there that are fairly bareback by comparison, it's great to have choices. I for one, would rather not build my own bar.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:03 am 
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$275 vs $450... what do we get for the extra $175? Assuming production costs are similar...


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:40 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
$275 vs $450... what do we get for the extra $175? Assuming production costs are similar...


Now this is a relevant question. Looking at the bar that costs 275, I think the bar I use is well worth the difference in costs. For me it is all the small things. The grip. The carbon bar, the overall feel in the grip. Refinements in CL, in depower and finally the leash.

That said, the cost of the bar when bought with a kite is actually $250, and not $450...so there is a discount when kite and bar is bought together.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:47 am 
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tautologies wrote:
The funny part is that every time I see someone explain that if only one company made a bar that everyone used...then they come up with their desired requirements...and they are different from everybody elses..and we're back to square one.
I like that the bar I use.... There are a lot of small things I would almost go so far as to say I would not want to be without.....
....only reason why prices aren't falling now though is that it would make it unsustainable to produce the bars.
Let's use our friends at Switch as an example.
They are selling a ton of bars......Wanna know why?
BECAUSE THEY COST LESS......A LOT LESS.
Not because they are the best made bar, or the bar that satisfies all the little details that you say "you would not want to be without".
My suggestion about an independent making a kick ass bar for cheap, in a large volume, and at a cheap price....would obviously require that they start with somewhat deep pockets.
Also, that they make something that has most of the bells and whistles that have become what we expect these days.
They could also have a few options like Ocean Rodeo who has three versions of their bar.
After a year or two, when they have sold a ton of bars, the economy of scale would be sustainable and they could keep making bars at a profit, for less than the prices that many of us agree, are too high now.
This follows one of your favorite scenarios of less companies out there producing kite gear! :wink:
Only in this case, I'm suggesting that somebody (a company like Shimano for instance) who is already very experienced with mechanical expertise, and has already produced products that require plastic molding, cold forging, CNC milling/machining, casting, and so on... go after this niche of the kiteboarding market, like Shinn does with kiteboards.
Just a thought that will likely never happen,..but it might be cool if it did.


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 Post subject: Re: 443 Euros / 550 USD / 349 GBP for a bar? Have they gone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:09 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
Let's use our friends at Switch as an example.
They are selling a ton of bars......Wanna know why?
BECAUSE THEY COST LESS......A LOT LESS.
Not because they are the best made bar, or the bar that satisfies all the little details that you say "you would not want to be without".
My suggestion about an independent making a kick ass bar for cheap, in a large volume, and at a cheap price....would obviously require that they start with somewhat deep pockets.
Also, that they make something that has most of the bells and whistles that have become what we expect these days.
They could also have a few options like Ocean Rodeo who has three versions of their bar.
After a year or two, when they have sold a ton of bars, the economy of scale would be sustainable and they could keep making bars at a profit, for less than the prices that many of us agree, are too high now.
This follows one of your favorite scenarios of less companies out there producing kite gear! :wink:
Only in this case, I'm suggesting that somebody (a company like Shimano for instance) who is already very experienced with mechanical expertise, and has already produced products that require plastic molding, cold forging, CNC milling/machining, casting, and so on... go after this niche of the kiteboarding market, like Shinn does with kiteboards.
Just a thought that will likely never happen,..but it might be cool if it did.


It is an interesting thought., BUT we are so many different people that have slightly different demands and wishes. Design by committee is a recipe for disaster. When you see websites that don't work it is usually because it was designed by many... :-)

There was a company that tried I think XXX or something like that.

Personally I think it would be hard to make a business work like this because there is no standard in the market. I had an f-one bar that had front lines that were about 15 feet shorter than my front lines. I've had best kites that needed lines of different length. front back and 5th line. I've had kites that had opposite kookproof lines from what my Naish kites have. What a nightmare it would be to design for all of that :-)

That said, if we could get a standard agreed upon by kiting companies I think it could work. I do not think price leader is the route I would go, and I think this discussion is a little weird since many companies add the bar to the kite for a lot less than they retail the bar for separately.


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