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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:07 pm 
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Hi Greg,

Very promising development. How are the small sizes behaving in higher winds?


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:16 am 
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Tautologies - Thanks for the stoke.

dafish - Thanks for the stoke. "Old school" makes me think of doing a deadman on an AR5. Alaias and the papio - that's ancient school, right?
Math behind the science? Yeah, maybe. I use clean, simple curves any where I can for everything I design. So, outside of all the measuring and thinking, the actual design part is elegantly simple and easy in principle. If I had 3-D cloth to work with, would be a no-brainer. However, making a 2-D design file, for 2-D material, to make a 3-D kite; that nearly killed me at first. There does exist some killer software for that, but the way it turned out, I'm glad I did it without any shortcuts. Labor of love style.

WildDuke - Thanks for your willingness to support!!!!! That's a huge help.
Sorry about the website registration!!! Short story on that is that I posted the site, one of my close family members saw it and expressed to me that it didn't reflect the spirit of the brand as they thought I wanted it to, so I pulled it down for a second look. The good news is that I put it back up (to stay) just before midnight on New Year's Eve - made the deadline. The bad news is that, since I changed the registration form, I lost all the info from everyone that had submitted already.

ANYBODY THAT SUBMITTED ON THAT FORM IN 2012, PLEASE DO IT AGAIN IF YOU WANT ME TO EMAIL YOU WHEN THE GEAR IS GOING ONLINE (sorry)

Westozzy - Thanks for the compliment. Will work on the video footage. I've got some, but need more. Yeah, before going deep into the project I wouldn't have assumed that it would handle load, but can say now for sure it does. Wouldn't seem struts have anything to do with canopy stability under load. Some people have asked about LE arch. Its clear struts don't support the LE either (all proper design and bridling in my opinion).

Coloradokiter - Thanks for your interest. Colorado has got to be pretty sweet this time of year - Powder?

Europ2 - Test of production kites? Production will be exactly same as development - same design file, materials and process. But, maybe you mean testing by more/different riders? I'll add a page soon to the website to post testimonials as I get them.
My feeling is that light wind relaunch is better because its easier to get a lighter weight wingtip to roll over - also the LE sweeps back which encourages the kite to roll over.
I'm not sure the lightweight give it better usable low end power. I think being lightweight helps is stay in the sky, but that's maybe different than useable low end power? However, it does have good low end lift, but I think this is because the profile fills easier/cleaner without struts (not a weight thing).
As for the windrange table - I totally agree that this would be an awesome tool, but I feel like its problematic due to so many variables, so it tends to be at best not accurate, and at worst misleading. Individual riding technique, and differences between boards make so much difference that I don't see a way to set a standard. But I'm open to any system that can be objective. Without that, everyone will make different claims. Car manufacturers can't seem to nail down mileage stats, so I'm not optimistic for such a guide in a sport such as ours. (Feel like this opens a whole new discussion thread? Yikes.)

Tautologies - Drift? Heck yeah!

xray - Thanks. Excellent. The 6 and the 8 was where it started before taking on each of the other sizes, so we've got a ton of time in strong wind. I think the bigger the size of kite, the more critical twist is for fun steering, but it still matters on all sizes, even the small ones. Some people have wondered about stability into higher loads, which is a good question. In my comment above to Westozzy I describe some of what we found regarding stability. From my experience, bridling is a key component of arch stability, and that struts don't play any role, at least in the designs I've made. I would be shocked if other brands don't work in this direction now that the lid has been cracked.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:13 am 
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Location: Seattle
Awesome. I've heard Boardriding Maui kites and boards are on their way soon. Can't wait to get my new quiver.

Since I had the opportunity to ride these in Maui, I want to answer some persistent questions:
- Relaunch?: Yes, they relaunch great
- Responsive?: Very, very responsive. Like flying one or two kite sizes smaller. Little bar throw is required for power/depower, so good to put your stopper down a bit.
- Boosting?: Goes way big the kite is so fast and light it really sends you up
- Surf: A++ Best surf kite I've ever ridden
- Unhooked: Okay, but didn't have ideal wind to try a lot of tricks nor time to make fine tuning adjustments. Worked good on raileys, but the kite goes to the edge of the window like other SLEs.
- Feel?: To me the Cloud feels a lot like a North Rebel, so grunty but more responsive and with lighter bar pressure.
- Overpowered?: No problem in over-powered conditions, seems to ride just like any other SLE kite. Maui can be a very good test location for gusty, over powered conditions.

I also can't wait to take these new kites snowkiting :)


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:55 am 
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So how does this design compare size and power wise to standard kites? If I want to replace a 12m, should I take the 13 or the 10?

Other question: can you still transport it on its back like a normal kite, will it still "float" in the air? This is important for spots with tight access were you pump and launch at different places...

Thx


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:23 pm 
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Osprey - Wow. I'm feeling the love Man. THANK YOU! Readers have got to think I've got you on the payroll (as if I have a payroll, ha!) But, really, thank you. I'm not with you on the idea to slide the stopper down - be free Baby! I'm totally joking - entirely a matter of personal preference - ride'em however!

Pierrot - Hard/impossible to set a standard to be able to speak in accurate generalities. I don't see a perfect match to a guess at an average 12. Maybe easier if I can ask what other sizes/models are in your quiver?

To your other question, yes, I think its easy to carry in that way like a normal kite. Maybe easier? Don't think I've considered this really so I'll pay attention now that you've mentioned it.

Back to the subject of Pierrot's first question:

To all - Since launching the site I've been getting tons of request for a windrange chart. Been continuing to chew on this subject a lot. Can't get over the reality of the day that I'm super happy on my 6 while the guy next to me, same size, is perfectly happy on the same model in an 8. I can't imagine any way to account for this example of personal preference so that the same windchart can be accurate for these two different riders. And, if it can't be accurate, it shouldn't be claimed, no?

If I'm seeing this correctly, then isn't this forum a perfect environment for riders to be able to communicate with each other to discuss the subjectiveness of individual experiences. Like, "Last Tuesday the windmeter read A, but normally means its really B, I couldn't get going on my model C 13m, but I was perfectly powered when I tired my friends model D 13m." I think that's all I could find credible. One problem being, I'm not sure what there is to prevent representatives from brands posing as unaffiliated riders and making BS claims, so I guess there is a potential risk. But, all brands competing to push the truth on published windrange charts doesn't help anyone either.

What's the solution? Try'em, right? But if that's not possible? Let me know so I can answer the question on my site in a way that serves the riders (if there is a way). Thanks!

While I'm asking for help - I just got some awesome feedback from one rider about shipping costs/hassles from the states (thankfully, not a shipment from me). I thought I had a workable plan in place, but now I'm questioning if there's a better one. If you've got feedback, please post here or drop me an e-mail. Thanks again!!


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:39 pm 
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I agree this is kind of difficult to answer such windrange / size questions... The best would definitely be to have demos available so that everyone can get his own feeling and opinion (kind of what epic is doing :idea: sorry I shouldn't mention this name on the forum :lol: )

My current quiver is Naish Bolt 7m, bolt 9m, cult 12m and Fly (15m) + different boards... Will be replacing my 12 this year. 80-85kg. Used on water and snow.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:30 am 
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Pierrot - Agreed, demo is the best way to go. Best done with an open mind and full knowledge of the strong tendency to like what we are most accustomed to, making it hard to wrap our mind around different gear even if it could open new opportunities we'd appreciate after a little adjustment. Hat's off to Epic for putting in the legwork to make demo available to riders.

Regarding your quiver, I'm glad I asked. Knowing the models definitely influences my thoughts. To replace the 12 in your quiver, I'd say the 13. The Bolt is gruntier than average in my opinion, so the 10 is too close. The 13 may nibble into your 15 riding time, but that's maybe not a big problem. Alternatively, if you wanted to make things simpler with a 3 kite quiver, I could be pretty happy with a 7, 10, 15 combo.

I've been working on the windchart. Here's what I've got so far:
17m = stand up paddlers are bummed that I'm in the lineup, but what can I do - its so fun when its glassy
13m = SUP'ers have given up / paddled in and I've got the surf to myself since its still too light for most kiters
10m = still a really nice day - the riding is awesome and sand isn't getting blown into my lunch
8m = perfect for working on a new trick, I'm powered, but not scared
6m = every day on Maui, don't even check, just pump it up
5m = I gotta go - my beach chair just blew away, with my dog still leashed to it


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:14 am 
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Gosh, your familiar with the Bolt Greg? ;-)
Currently riding a 7-10 Fuse combo. Starting at 13 knots on a nugget, riding to 40 knots on a twintip. Wondering how a 6-10 Cloud combo would be.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Location: Oahu
boardriding maui wrote:
5m = I gotta go - my beach chair just blew away, with my dog still leashed to it


Lol that was here today. :thumb: :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:15 pm 
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Greg,

Love your wind range table, it's in keeping with your image. Keep it and stick it on the web site. You are different so why have the same wind range chart as everyone else.

When I wear out my bandit V 12m I could be very tempted by a cloud. Only issue for me, in UK/Europe some of the beaches are muddy sand and the white cloth will look terrible after a couple of sessions. How about black? Anyway it's something to think of for those without golden beaches, as it would otherwise put some people off. For example, where I am, people don't buy the bandits with a lot of white cloth on them.

Mike

P.S think you missed a trick not having a Cloud 9


Last edited by mike dubs on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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