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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Pierrot wrote:
It seems it did not take long before the "strutless" idea got copied by a major brand...

Only in 16m, here is the airush lithium zero.



It is an 18.5m and designed to be an ultra lightweight lightwind kite - In development for a number of years and some might remember this

Image

from http://www.sbckiteboard.com/gear_article?news_id=1715


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:19 pm 
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A response from Airush about the similarities of the Zero to the Cloud kite.

The Zero is 18m and weighs 3.4kg.

https://www.facebook.com/AirushInternat ... =1&theater


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:09 am
Posts: 46
BWD- Thanks for the comments and for sharing the video.

DrLightWind- I was waiting to reply to you on the kite you had pictured, but looked back now and see its gone. Don't think I'm familiar what that kite was. Looked interesting. What brand/model/year? For the way it sat in the beach, wondering if relaunch in some situations was an issue for that kite?

Blake- In my opinion line length is 100% a matter of personal preference. Outside of testing, my preference is for 20's on everything. But, yeah, this does feel different on the bigger sizes. If I was really obsessing, to super dial it in for my preference maybe I'd go 20's on 5m - 10m, 21's on the 13m and 22's on the 17m? Again, totally just my preference knowing to each his own. I know some riders that swear by shorter lines on bigger kites to speed them up, sort of the opposite of what seems to be most rider's thinking. So anything goes.

Ronnie - Great questions. Regarding a control system, yes, the kite is set to accommodate bar systems tuned with lines at equal length when at full power, loop against the bar, which is loosely used as the industry standard (unfortunately not used 100%). I feel strongly that control systems are a matter of personal preference and that riders are best served to make their choices independent of their kite selection. Keys for me are amount of travel, line length, bar length, and other features. The back lines on the kite have extra length for adjustment to tune for bars at a different front-to-back line setting.

Kiteus Maximus - Another great question. I could, but honestly I never calculated them. With all the different kite designs and all the variables that affect performance I think discussing aspect ratio would be very misleading. Its natural to compare gear to other stuff we're familiar with and to draw conclusions, but I find again and again that this doesn't hold up. Many of the e-mails I've gotten, riders are guessing that the Cloud sits back in the window with limited depower, when in actuality its the opposite.

zact - Wow. Thanks so much for all the amazing support. One thing you wrote jumped out at me, "doesn't even have to be a great kite". I feel super lucky for this development project to have had things fall into place.

panchito - Thanks for liking the concept. I love your stoke for Tarifa and hope the gear gets there one day.

rightguard - Amen Brother. Till the last couple weeks, huh? Welcome back trades.

flipper231 - You reveal your name?! Isn't that breaking the forum code?! I'm still trying to figure out how this thing works. I'm overwhelmed by the kindness of posts like yours. Supportive beyond imagination. Thank you so much!

herculon - Not sure how accurate my bathroom scale is, but its telling me 7 lbs / 3.2 kg. Thats in its bag, but I don't think the bag weighs anything. I didn't check the link you posted. Is that good?

Pierrot - Thank you sooooooo much for that post. I was totally unaware. I've been trying to make time to reply to everyone's questions here - and was super curious if the picture you posted was recent or old news. This morning via ronnie's post I learned that its breaking news. Wow!!!

Thanks for posting ronnie. I'd be lying if I said that the news didn't sting a little. But, what can I do? I shared your link to my Facebook page with the post:

Its been a crazy two weeks for my awareness of a larger strutless world.

To give full credit to Airush - After starting my development and having some promising results, I searched for strutless designs online. All I came up with at that time was a rad looking "batkite" prototype from Airush. Couldn't find any info on it other than rad looking spypic online. I contacted them at that point to make sure I wasn't infringing on any patents. They were super cool about it which I really appreciate. An hour ago I learned about their kite pictured here. Looks great and I'm stoked they are going for it.

On Monday a friend called me to tell me about a photoshoot going on of a strutless kite from another big brand.

Last week a rider emailed me to let me know about this rad project (presumably has been going on for some time): www.victoria-spirit.com/fr/Fata_Morgana_fr.html

What's it all mean? I guess more great options for riders to have fun. Good stuff. If my public development was any influence on more riders having access to more rad gear, then I'm glad for that. To any riders that can be supportive of my work, please spread the word to your friends. The first shipments of gear are scheduled to go out next week, so its a big time for me. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:32 pm
Posts: 115
thanks for the weight !
this makes your zero-strut kite cloud the lightest tubekite (per squaremeter) available :!:
its lighter than a flysurfer speed3 deluxe 19. it might not have the race-qualities of a flysurfer or north dyno, but it has one big plus: ease of handling and robustness. looking forward to buying the cloud. simply amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:37 am
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...


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 1750
Location: Miami @ 6" Flat Butter!
boardriding maui wrote:
DrLightWind- I was waiting to reply to you on the kite you had pictured, but looked back now and see its gone. Don't think I'm familiar what that kite was. Looked interesting. What brand/model/year? For the way it sat in the beach, wondering if relaunch in some situations was an issue for that kite?
Here is the picture again of 2009 UltraFlat from Fluid Kites 11m Torque-2,
with flexible in-fill panels to the floating struts & canopy. I still have it for history........
Yes, relaunch wasn't easy when the wind dropped even to a reasonable range.
The other issue was which never happened with my light weight,
but when somebody else was testing it with an average or above weight,
the kite inverted during boosting if sheeted out a little and scared the crap out of them :lol:
I was happy with its range, boosting, hang-time, bar pressure,
but the steering speed was really bad like the first year's Switchblade with a leg.
No wonder even big brands never could workout completely these few issues :nono:

DrLW


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File comment: 11m Fluid / Torque-2 / Year 2009
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 101.01 KIB | Viewed 1623 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:38 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:23 pm
Posts: 442
Location: drtuba.eu, kite-stuff.org, eXtremist.si, kajtar.si
Too flat kites needs more wind compared to more arced ones (talking of modern swept back kites) to relaunch.

As Greg said it is hard to give a true AR of the kite and it is only one parameter in design of the kite, but it is doable, just make 2D drawing out of design and most of CAD progs (Rhino included) have area calculations already impemented.

Regarding credits & ideas, those mostly don't go to true owners. For me the true credit for strutless ILE kite goes to Windtools (and for double skin ILE kite Zero Prestige (as they had that idea not sure that they also made it), also Wipika did some model if ILE double skin if I'm correct.

Few links to check:

http://surfforum.oase.com/showthread.php?t=13159
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2368536
http://www.zeroprestige.org/

Also Alex @ Niaboo.com did some cool kites in the past and you can even maybe look at them as ILE strutless kites w/o ILE (not foils/arcs!). As I see he is still active...

Image

:bye:



boardriding maui wrote:
Kiteus Maximus - Another great question. I could, but honestly I never calculated them. With all the different kite designs and all the variables that affect performance I think discussing aspect ratio would be very misleading. Its natural to compare gear to other stuff we're familiar with and to draw conclusions, but I find again and again that this doesn't hold up. Many of the e-mails I've gotten, riders are guessing that the Cloud sits back in the window with limited depower, when in actuality its the opposite.

Thanks for posting ronnie. I'd be lying if I said that the news didn't sting a little. But, what can I do? I shared your link to my Facebook page with the post:

Its been a crazy two weeks for my awareness of a larger strutless world.

To give full credit to Airush - After starting my development and having some promising results, I searched for strutless designs online. All I came up with at that time was a rad looking "batkite" prototype from Airush. Couldn't find any info on it other than rad looking spypic online. I contacted them at that point to make sure I wasn't infringing on any patents. They were super cool about it which I really appreciate. An hour ago I learned about their kite pictured here. Looks great and I'm stoked they are going for it.

On Monday a friend called me to tell me about a photoshoot going on of a strutless kite from another big brand.

Last week a rider emailed me to let me know about this rad project (presumably has been going on for some time): www.victoria-spirit.com/fr/Fata_Morgana_fr.html

What's it all mean? I guess more great options for riders to have fun. Good stuff. If my public development was any influence on more riders having access to more rad gear, then I'm glad for that. To any riders that can be supportive of my work, please spread the word to your friends. The first shipments of gear are scheduled to go out next week, so its a big time for me. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:09 am
Posts: 46
herculon - Thanks for the great news! :) Since I had the scale out, I grabbed the 8 just to see. 4.7 lbs / 2.13 kg. With all the news this week of brands launching strutless designs, if a weight war is waged as a result it will be critical in my opinion for riders to be aware of the huge % of weight that is now the bladder material. I think cutting corners there would be terrible mistake. I see bladder failures as a main contributor to a kite's lifespan and this was a major influence in my motivation to seek a strutless design solution so riders would have less problems with their gear. So, thinner bladder material isn't worth the tradeoff to my thinking.

BWD - I believe your question was regarding warranty, but post has gone down before I've replied. An excellent question. The simple answer is "the standard" one year material and workmanship. The more accurate answer is that my work does not fit the industry "standard". I thought to say that every part of my offering is handled directly by me but this fails to give credit to others that are involved. But from every part of its design to its sale, I take full responsibility. There will be no "Sorry Man, that's just the policy" from any individual without their heart in it. Success for me is measured by every stoked rider, and keeping them stoked. Hope that answers your question, let me know if not.

DrLightWind - Thanks for reposting. Tell me more about "flexible in-fill panels"! Did the material have flex?? If so, what was the result. Sounds fascinating!! For the relaunch, yeah, without even the wingtips up in the air very much + the weight in the canopy + the long flat section in the LE, I was just wondering how that could work. For the invert issue - YIKES! I can't comment on that kite having not been involved in its design, but can say from my own development that I've experienced how critical bridling is to reliable performance.

Gigi;) - I agree that offering an aspect ratio is totally doable. My point was that given the substantial differences in kite designs that this measure is misleading. Years ago, seemed like a standard system of projected area was going to develop for the sport, but that doesn't seem to have happened. I can't imagine a way for this to accurately account for the majority of affect to what the rider experiences anyway. A measure of a kite's cord line at center could maybe be useful information, but then opens the door to wanting camber too. But what good is all that when there's no way to even objectively test for windrange for a design. Its all subjective, and speaking just for myself, I'm cool with that. What is a bummer for me is that my work didn't make your list for "credits & ideas". I agree that development and innovation are to commended, but hoped you'd give me a shout out for the very different level of work and commitment needed to bring a new idea to production. In your defense, I guess the very title of this thread includes "in development". So "production" is off the topic. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:36 pm 
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Nothing wrong with taking ideas that already exist and developing them into something functional and pleasing to to the eye. Apple have done well from this ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:36 am
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Location: Oahu
fdvj wrote:
Nothing wrong with taking ideas that already exist and developing them into something functional and pleasing to to the eye. Apple have done well from this ;)


Exactly. I am super excited about this development in our sport these days.

Taking off stuff that serves little or no function is absolutely the way to go..especially if the function is mostly cosmetic.

Then of course the debate becomes to what extent does it serve a function. I'm super excited to see where this is going. :thumb:


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