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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Quote:
When you say that the Cloud "misses the four first gears" and tells me that you have never flown it, i think you are being somewhat irresponsible.


Actually, Clouds have a lot of gears and go through them well, but maybe not in the four-on-the-floor pattern you might be used to...

Also as said before, they fly completely differently from high AR, low profile wings I have experienced.
The cloud seems to have plenty of projected area and fly "large" in power for its size, with fast-turning and lower AR than many kites, so you may experience that as low end or grunt, yet lacking struts means it has less drag than its AR/shape would make you expect, giving apparent wind power you might associate with a high aspect, slow turning kite like a race kite.
It seems counter intuitive at times and it's a different feel.
I got mine for light wind but it's outstanding feature is drift: jump, carve or bust the fins out and slide, the kite stays where you need it, in onshore or sideshore wind (more than many kites at least, I am not saying it's magic...).
In a situation where you have to totally sheet out to ride a wave or whatever, you lose the pressure in the back lines but you still can tell exactly where the kite is without looking, because you can hear it start to flap, which is funny (seems to really bother a vocal few). But then when you look up, there it is exactly where it should be, stable even when sheeted out and luffing a bit. Thinking about some situations, this could actually be a real advantage, to keep your eye on the terrain or traffic.
Weird but it works great so far.
Can the Cloud keep up with a race kite or point as high? Probably not, don't know, haven't tried that yet...

IMO they offer grunt and apparent wind power, and fast turning, like 'em or not...


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:28 am
Posts: 45
@Greg Great to see you back on this thread :)

I just got back from a week in Cabarete, where I spent most of the time learning to ride foil boards using my 6m & 8m Clouds, also a bit of riding with surfboards. As usual, the Clouds generated a lot of curiosity and "cool kites!" comments, and, as with many other riders, my experience is that I can ride 2m smaller than most other riders, sometimes 3m less if they are less experienced and/or bigger (over 6'2" / 220lbs) guys.

My question is about bars... I've been using a modified bar with the chicken loop removed and a shackle attached to a slider on a piece of line in a Jay-Bar. I had two reasons for doing this -- one, the sliding, free feeling of the line instead of the fixed hook, but even more important was that this setup brings the bar 6-8" closer to me than a standard hook+loop configuration. There is something about how the Clouds fly that made me feel like I just *had* to get the bar closer to me. I would like to be able to use a more "off the shelf" bar, but I also like the feeling of having it closer to me. Has anyone else had this experience? Comments?


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:36 am 
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@rowboat, I am about to mod my bar in a similar manner to yours. Primarily it's so I can get more throw. But also so I can use a sliding spreader bar when I want to. Flying the Cloud, those two things have been feeling like important limitations of my bar/spreader. I like to fly it with it trimmed so that max power is with the bar on or close to my chicken loop. But I haven't felt an urge to get the bar closer to me beyond knowing that that would also give me more throw. But that urge is quite strong!


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:04 pm 
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boardriding maui wrote:
Global sales volume for Boardriding Maui is sufficient to sustain the effort but is below what one high volume store sells to a single market. So seems either my designs are too outside the norm or that dealing with the designer is not interesting to most riders.


Here is my opinion as a kiter living in Europe, Portugal, that would love to try the Cloud.

The only thing setting me back since the beginning is the price, period.

I was planning a 2 quiver kite (8+13).

$925 - 8 Cloud
$1025 - 13 Cloud

$100 ($50 x 2) - Shipping ("DHL from HKG charged at a flat $50 per kite shipping&handling.)

Total = $2050 = 1,610.01 EUR (1 EUR = 1.27329 USD - Paypal exchange rate as of this moment)

I now have to add 23% VAT (over the kites + shipping costs)

1980 EUR (1610 + 23%)

I still need to add an extra 40 or 50 EUR, which is what DHL will charge me for handling the payment of the VAT (in the best case scenario if both kites are sent as 1 single shipment).

Final cost = 2020 EUR without a control bar, pump, or a nice bag (even if a simple backpack style).

As a quick comparison, I was offered a package deal 2 or 3 weeks ago which included 2 new Zeeko Krush 2013 Kites, 9 + 12 and 1 control bar for 1300 EUR. If I go the Switch kites way I can get a 9 + 13 Method v2 for 1377 EUR.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:28 am
Posts: 384
Location: Hamburg
I see your point. There are a lot of kites on sale now in Germany which would be cheaper than the Cloud.
However I bought a 17m Cloud in spring. I wanted a 17m and an alternative which would have interested me would have been a Slingshot Turbine 2013. That would have been more expensive (in spring. Now it is sold out and the 2014 model would also be more expensive).
The 17m has some low wind qualities which only Flysurfers have (stability and flying at the lowest wind level). They would have been double of the price of the Cloud.
On the calculation of the VAT I would suggest to get back to Greg and ask him about his experiences with customers in Europe.
Notwithstanding you have the disadvantage of 23% VAT (19% in Germany).

In Germany there is a growing group of kiters who bought and tried the Cloud. Some are into it and love it (like me), some start to sell them because it does not fit their style. Which is something Greg always points out, that the Cloud won´t suit everybody. So you start to find some Clouds with little usage on the second hand market.

But independent from the angle you look at it, the Cloud at this stage won´t be the dead end cheapest current model kite you can get.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:28 pm 
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The 17m is a much better deal, no doubt.

The difference in price from the 5m Cloud to the 17m Cloud is only $250, the 17m only costs 30% more than the 5m.

If I look at the F-One Bandit 6 prices (kite only on the Flysurf website as an example), the 5m costs 729 EUR and the 14m (the biggest kite listed) 1119 EUR. The difference in price from the 5m to the 14m is 390 EUR, the 14m costs 53.5% more than the 5m.

If I do the same math for the Slingshot RPM (kite only, same website, biggest kite listed), the 14m costs 49.4% more than the 4.5.

And this is for 14m kites, if I were to compare with the 13m Cloud the difference would be even higher, the 13m Cloud only costs 20.6% more than the 5m Cloud.

Dirk wrote:
But independent from the angle you look at it, the Cloud at this stage won´t be the dead end cheapest current model kite you can get.


I'm really not looking to get the cheapest kite on the market. I would like to get a kite that suits my riding and my conditions, strapless surfboard in side-shore to on-shore conditions, and from what I've been reading the Cloud seems to do it. Plus I'm a big supporter of "out-of-the-box" thinking and would like to give a totally different kite a try.

One thing I refuse to do, which is to pay 1400 EUR for a 9m kite (with bar). If some companies can sell their 9m kites for 750-850 EUR (with bar) and they use the same fabric and build quality is in the same range, I can only assume that those who ask for 1400 EUR are filing their pockets. If the more expensive kites were made in US or Germany, there could be a reason behind it, but they are pretty much all made in the same place, aren't they? I can see a reason for the price of the Cloud, I'm sure you are offered very different prices depending on whether you order 10 or 1000 kites. And if any big brand knows they will sell 1000 kites, maybe the man behind the Cloud isn't sure of that.


Last edited by fredmendes on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:54 am
Posts: 209
Location: Vancouver, Canada
In the US the 17m Cloud is the cheapest of all the LW kites. For example you can pick up a Blade Fat Lady for about $1250 (list price is $1600 though) while the list price on the 17m Cloud is only $1100.


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Thx @cleepa. Yep, I guess that was my reasoning as well. I ride the Cloud fully sheeted 80% of the time, and I was finding that when I wanted to sheet out (riding with a regular hook&loop setup), I was reaching wayyy out, not really able to sheet out enough. With the setup I have now the bar is super close to me & I can sheet out very easily. The downsides are myriad though: 1) nonstandard equipment 2) no leash 3) can't unhook (although I never do), etc... I've seen more versatile setups with a simple length of line tied across, above a normal spreader bar & hook, so that you still get the slider effect but can go back to the hook if necessary. That also doesn't require the Jay-Bar -- BUT neither does that setup get the bar any closer to you.

I would be really interested in hearing from other riders & Greg on the sheeting/bar distance issue...

cleepa wrote:
@rowboat, I am about to mod my bar in a similar manner to yours. Primarily it's so I can get more throw. But also so I can use a sliding spreader bar when I want to. Flying the Cloud, those two things have been feeling like important limitations of my bar/spreader. I like to fly it with it trimmed so that max power is with the bar on or close to my chicken loop. But I haven't felt an urge to get the bar closer to me beyond knowing that that would also give me more throw. But that urge is quite strong!


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:26 am 
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Sheetable pulley bar pops up in my memory... might be the right tool! Anyone tried it?


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 Post subject: Re: Strutless kite in development on Maui
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:46 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pm
Posts: 2922
Ozone race bar system is designed to allow you to keep your stance while adjusting the trim.



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