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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window........
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:17 pm 
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I think Drift / Slack does not only depends on the position of the kite. The profile is also very important. C kites have less profile (less grunty kite, less power on the bar) then bow kite. That why C kites won't backstall even whey they sit deep in the ww. This also mean when you edge them very hard in strong wind they will move more forward in the ww and will eat gusty better. But when poping the POP happens to quick and the kite will not move forward so it will just slingshot you toward the kite. this is when you get slack.


i might be wrong though. :-?


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:32 pm 
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FarQueLot is right. This is kite not cable the energy is stored in the kite not lines. As the kite surges forward it generates energy. When you pop off the water the kite falls back into the window and creates your slack as the kite drifts down wind.

The reason a bow kite does not work this way is one they fly close to the edge all ready. You just can not load very long or depower the kite. All so once you release and pop the kite will continue to fly forward and killing the slack.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:29 pm 
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When you edge hard the apparent wind window will shift forward, and the kite needs time to get to the new wind window edge. Pop off the water when the kite is still near the center of the new wind window and it will pull you downwind. That's why timing is so critical for a good pop.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window........
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:03 am 
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Motion wrote:
I think Drift / Slack does not only depends on the position of the kite. The profile is also very important. C kites have less profile (less grunty kite, less power on the bar) then bow kite. That why C kites won't backstall even whey they sit deep in the ww. This also mean when you edge them very hard in strong wind they will move more forward in the ww and will eat gusty better. But when poping the POP happens to quick and the kite will not move forward so it will just slingshot you toward the kite. this is when you get slack.


i might be wrong though. :-?

You might be right about being wrong :D
My original post was made after a afternoon drinking session (wind appearance failure), but I'm sober now (well so far today anyway) and thinking about it more, maybe some things are being lost in translation or interpretation?
IMO
The slack is caused by the aggressive edging then releasing your edge and pressure on the lines and going towards the kite, the c kite surges forward then once the edge is released falls back to its natural window, this is your slack moment the better you release the better slack, the C kite behaviour helps in its surge then restore behaviour .
I think the C's have a deeper profile, this is what gives them there smaller wind window more base power, less power down. LEI grunt by bar sheeting are cause buy over sheeting and forcing the kite to stall out with a big wind gulp, so to speak which only gives you a spike and can't be maintained, but is easy to do. With more experience and timing a C will exert plenty of power and no lack of grunt -just lack an off switch
Don't agree with less grunty kite either, maybe you ain't been spanked by a C properly.
Don't agree with eat gusty to much either, prefer my rpm to my fuel in gusty stuff, easier on the back, although have ridden some ugly gusts with Fuels over the years and they stand up ok (been riding Fuels since they first made them) so these are observations and my own interpretations, I could be wrong but would need a lot of convincing.
luv
F


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:01 am 
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Aside from their position in the window, it feels like C kites move around a lot easier. When you edge hard on a C kite it flies forward and gives you pop. If you fly a bow kite that sits deep in the window like a switchblade, I never felt it move like this, it would just sit deep in the window and pull against you, so it delivers its pop a little differently. Obviously it moves around in the window but I always felt like some kites are prone to just sitting there and pulling like a truck.

Nimbler kites like c kites and SLEs (ts/rpm) or an envy type design do something similar to C's in that they are easier to push forward in the window (and causing them to stall and give you more slack) when you pop hard. But upwind performance suffers because you can push them too far out of the window and they stop pulling, so you need a little more power size for size in a C than a bow/delta kite that stays in place easier.

This is just what I've felt after flying deltas and bows and then switching to C kites


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Very interesting tread!
Hope some kite designers could comment! :D

Seems to me the bridles affect it quite a lot as well!


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:34 pm 
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i hate the wake style setting on my c4. hate it!. the kite feels dull and slow and shit upwind. which i guess means its sitting further back in the window. on the standard setting is rocks, flys fast and good upwind.

im not an unhooking wakes styler so i don't want crappy flying kites.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:22 am 
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When you edge against a kite, all kites move forward in the window, it's just a question of how much they do it, and a question of where the kite sits in the window to begin with (by design) while just riding along.
Flatter high aspect SLE kites generally fly forward in the window, obviously they go upwind well, boost well and float well, but they stay forward in the window pretty much all the time, so don't give the slack, and they don't tend to drift back well when you are moving straight towards them.
Kites designed to sit further back have more room to shoot forward.
Some may not shoot as far forward as much as some other designs, based on a whole pile of design specifics way beyond my very basic grasp.
Kites (several styles) that sit further back tend to drift better, meaning they will fall back without falling down like the high aspect flatter SLE types do.
C kites (very generally) do not have as much low end grunt as a grunt bucket delta while sitting parked because of less projected area pulling while parked, but the C kite does generate power with it's wingtips while being turned, where a delta type is not going to do that as much because they have small sides and small wingtips, the power you get is the power you get.
It seems we now have every combination of hybrid kite design possible.
So not so easy to say that this type of kite does this or that type of kite does that very specifically.
Here is an incomplete list of what the manufacturers are naming their kite designs:
Delta C Shape Kite
Future C Design Kite
Hybrid Delta Kite
Open C Kite
Open Delta C Kite
Spherical C Profile Kite
Bridled C Kite
High Performance Crossover Kite
C Kite
Competition C Kite
Core C Kite
SLE Hybrid Kite
Free Ride Kite
Race Kite
All Terrain Kite
Freestyle Kite
Hybrid Bow Kite
Crossride Kite
4 Line C Shape Kite
Loaded Fifth Hybrid Design Kite
C Shaped Freeride Kite
Loaded 5th Line High Depower Design Kite
Delta Oriented Design Kite
Four Line Hybrid Design Kite
Swept Compact C Design Kite


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:49 am 
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Ok guys come on...

The only difference between a c kite and a bow/hybrid is how the kite reacts the moment you unhook. C kite design is based around the old two line kite model that is designed to fly without the need for sheeting, so when you unhook they continue to fly forward at the same speed. Inversely, bow/hybrid kites require constant adjustments in sheeting to continue to fly right unless the wind is perfect. So when you unhook, a bow/hybrid will tend to have too much back line pressure and begin to slow down/fall back in the window, that is why they feel like a truck pulling downwind, and they will likely backstall if you don't hook back in and sheet out. That is also why it is recommended to trim your kite before unhooking, unlike with c kites.

When it comes to pop all that matters is the power of a kite. So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window. Most of you think that kills the power, but again, power is based on apparent wind speed not necessarily position in the wind window. So the moment it shoots forward you actually increase the power of the kite. Bow/hybrids will mostly slow down as you load, unless you trimmed it a little bit, in which case you are not using the full power of the kite to begin with.

Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite. All that matters is that you pop hard enough to load the lines up and accelerate forward faster than the kite is moving forward. So the faster you go and the harder you pop, the more slack you get. Since a bow starts to slow down and sit back it is sometimes harder to hold your line and load the lines, so your pop gets thrown off, resulting in less slack.

In the end it is all about rider technique, that is why when you watch pro riders you can't really tell a difference between those on bows and those on c kites. For example, you have Andre Philip who rides a bow kite and always gets slack, then you have Langeree on a c kite and he rarely gets slack. so it doesn't matter. The only major difference I notice, and it is the reason I ride c kites, is that after you slack out the kite and land your trick, you can edge again and a c kite will keep flying, where as a bow will backstall no matter what. That is unless you ride downwind too long, then any kite will backstall.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:16 am 
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E^Ri wrote:
Ok guys come on...

The only difference between a c kite and a bow/hybrid is how the kite reacts the moment you unhook. C kite design is based around the old two line kite model that is designed to fly without the need for sheeting, so when you unhook they continue to fly forward at the same speed. Inversely, bow/hybrid kites require constant adjustments in sheeting to continue to fly right unless the wind is perfect. So when you unhook, a bow/hybrid will tend to have too much back line pressure and begin to slow down/fall back in the window, that is why they feel like a truck pulling downwind, and they will likely backstall if you don't hook back in and sheet out. That is also why it is recommended to trim your kite before unhooking, unlike with c kites.

When it comes to pop all that matters is the power of a kite. So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window. Most of you think that kills the power, but again, power is based on apparent wind speed not necessarily position in the wind window. So the moment it shoots forward you actually increase the power of the kite. Bow/hybrids will mostly slow down as you load, unless you trimmed it a little bit, in which case you are not using the full power of the kite to begin with.

Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite. All that matters is that you pop hard enough to load the lines up and accelerate forward faster than the kite is moving forward. So the faster you go and the harder you pop, the more slack you get. Since a bow starts to slow down and sit back it is sometimes harder to hold your line and load the lines, so your pop gets thrown off, resulting in less slack.

In the end it is all about rider technique, that is why when you watch pro riders you can't really tell a difference between those on bows and those on c kites. For example, you have Andre Philip who rides a bow kite and always gets slack, then you have Langeree on a c kite and he rarely gets slack. so it doesn't matter. The only major difference I notice, and it is the reason I ride c kites, is that after you slack out the kite and land your trick, you can edge again and a c kite will keep flying, where as a bow will backstall no matter what. That is unless you ride downwind too long, then any kite will backstall.


uuuuuhhhhmmmm...I'm can't be totally agree with you. By my exprience I saw C kite backstall exactly like a bow kite...so I think there are not kite that backstall and kite that doesn't, there are kite that are correctly trimmed and kite not.( trim a c kite is easier )

Also when you unhook I believe that is like to fly a 2 lines kite but no matter wich kind of kite you're riding.( if trimmed well ).

I always thought that load meaning to go a little bit downwind to sit the kite deeper in the wind, and then when you pop off the water the kite shoots forward in the wind.

Finally I think a kite can fly ONLY a the edge of the wind window, and is the edge of the window that change position respect the real wind ( by the effect of your direction and so by the effect of the apparent wind,) and this causes the movement of the kite forward when you edge and backward when you release the edge ( if you do it quickly=slack ). But I'd like to read what do you think about that concept...probably I'm wrong.


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