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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:35 am 
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The guy is right - if a C kite backstalls it means too much steering line pressure - your front lines are extended too much. Same story for a bow kite: too long front lines? pull depover, solved!

Also from what I have noticed - a shape of kite also matters. Its not all about line adjustments. Altho bridals change a lot - an angle of attack (if I do not mess the terms up). C shapes tend to have a fat leading enge and its kinda straight |, while bow kites have C or D-shaped leading edge . What I imagine is that having straight and fat leading edge makes the wind push the kite deep into wind window easier than if you have a D shaped leading edge. Same story with fences - in windy days a lace fence will stay while a thick wooden one will fly away like a sail.

alex85 wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
Ok guys come on...

The only difference between a c kite and a bow/hybrid is how the kite reacts the moment you unhook. C kite design is based around the old two line kite model that is designed to fly without the need for sheeting, so when you unhook they continue to fly forward at the same speed. Inversely, bow/hybrid kites require constant adjustments in sheeting to continue to fly right unless the wind is perfect. So when you unhook, a bow/hybrid will tend to have too much back line pressure and begin to slow down/fall back in the window, that is why they feel like a truck pulling downwind, and they will likely backstall if you don't hook back in and sheet out. That is also why it is recommended to trim your kite before unhooking, unlike with c kites.

When it comes to pop all that matters is the power of a kite. So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window. Most of you think that kills the power, but again, power is based on apparent wind speed not necessarily position in the wind window. So the moment it shoots forward you actually increase the power of the kite. Bow/hybrids will mostly slow down as you load, unless you trimmed it a little bit, in which case you are not using the full power of the kite to begin with.

Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite. All that matters is that you pop hard enough to load the lines up and accelerate forward faster than the kite is moving forward. So the faster you go and the harder you pop, the more slack you get. Since a bow starts to slow down and sit back it is sometimes harder to hold your line and load the lines, so your pop gets thrown off, resulting in less slack.

In the end it is all about rider technique, that is why when you watch pro riders you can't really tell a difference between those on bows and those on c kites. For example, you have Andre Philip who rides a bow kite and always gets slack, then you have Langeree on a c kite and he rarely gets slack. so it doesn't matter. The only major difference I notice, and it is the reason I ride c kites, is that after you slack out the kite and land your trick, you can edge again and a c kite will keep flying, where as a bow will backstall no matter what. That is unless you ride downwind too long, then any kite will backstall.


uuuuuhhhhmmmm...I'm can't be totally agree with you. By my exprience I saw C kite backstall exactly like a bow kite...so I think there are not kite that backstall and kite that doesn't, there are kite that are correctly trimmed and kite not.( trim a c kite is easier )

Also when you unhook I believe that is like to fly a 2 lines kite but no matter wich kind of kite you're riding.( if trimmed well ).

I always thought that load meaning to go a little bit downwind to sit the kite deeper in the wind, and then when you pop off the water the kite shoots forward in the wind.

Finally I think a kite can fly ONLY a the edge of the wind window, and is the edge of the window that change position respect the real wind ( by the effect of your direction and so by the effect of the apparent wind,) and this causes the movement of the kite forward when you edge and backward when you release the edge ( if you do it quickly=slack ). But I'd like to read what do you think about that concept...probably I'm wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:03 pm 
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E^Ri wrote:
Ok guys come on...

The only difference between a c kite and a bow/hybrid is how the kite reacts the moment you unhook. C kite design is based around the old two line kite model that is designed to fly without the need for sheeting, so when you unhook they continue to fly forward at the same speed. Inversely, bow/hybrid kites require constant adjustments in sheeting to continue to fly right unless the wind is perfect. So when you unhook, a bow/hybrid will tend to have too much back line pressure and begin to slow down/fall back in the window, that is why they feel like a truck pulling downwind, and they will likely backstall if you don't hook back in and sheet out. That is also why it is recommended to trim your kite before unhooking, unlike with c kites.

When it comes to pop all that matters is the power of a kite. So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window. Most of you think that kills the power, but again, power is based on apparent wind speed not necessarily position in the wind window. So the moment it shoots forward you actually increase the power of the kite. Bow/hybrids will mostly slow down as you load, unless you trimmed it a little bit, in which case you are not using the full power of the kite to begin with.

Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite. All that matters is that you pop hard enough to load the lines up and accelerate forward faster than the kite is moving forward. So the faster you go and the harder you pop, the more slack you get. Since a bow starts to slow down and sit back it is sometimes harder to hold your line and load the lines, so your pop gets thrown off, resulting in less slack.

In the end it is all about rider technique, that is why when you watch pro riders you can't really tell a difference between those on bows and those on c kites. For example, you have Andre Philip who rides a bow kite and always gets slack, then you have Langeree on a c kite and he rarely gets slack. so it doesn't matter. The only major difference I notice, and it is the reason I ride c kites, is that after you slack out the kite and land your trick, you can edge again and a c kite will keep flying, where as a bow will backstall no matter what. That is unless you ride downwind too long, then any kite will backstall.


Totally disagree with you!
First of all, tuning the kite for unhooked is so basic, it shouldn´t be even mentioned here in this thread!
To say the kite has nothing to say only means you need to spend more time testing kites :P
Yes of course you can do any trick on any kite if you are good enought, but there is a difference in a c and a bow in the way the kite slacks and the amount of it. I notice this every time I´m out kiting, and it´s NOT the rider since I´m still just me :P
Just for the record: I ride both types of kites - full double quiver...

Just listen to an expert who knows how to ride:


The reason is probably a mixture of reasons, not just the way the kites sits in the window (for those who remember the old days low ar deeper in the window, mid ar (freestyle) and high ar end of window (boosting) - all C´s but not all were as good for unhooking as the the other)...
The angle of attack, the bridle, the shape (LE shape), layout and wingtips...
Bridles and flat shape just seem to soften out gust and then also the pop, and then again less slack after. So a mixture of reasons I believe...
And sure the direct connected lines and the lines it´s self helps - try a steel wire as lines and you will not get the same slack. And no pulleys also - direct attached lines will be more direct and on and off. More explosive when releasing and then also less afterwards.

Again not saying I don´t make the same tricks on a hybrid, delta or SLE as a C, but the feel of the trick is much nicer and it also looks better when I do it on a C (same board, same spot, same conditions, same day).


Last edited by john a on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:10 pm 
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alex85 wrote:
uuuuuhhhhmmmm...I'm can't be totally agree with you. By my exprience I saw C kite backstall exactly like a bow kite...so I think there are not kite that backstall and kite that doesn't, there are kite that are correctly trimmed and kite not.( trim a c kite is easier )

Also when you unhook I believe that is like to fly a 2 lines kite but no matter wich kind of kite you're riding.( if trimmed well ).



Yeah you are right, but I already said that any kite will backstall if you ride at it too much. And I don't trim my c kites.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:32 pm 
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john a wrote:
Totally disagree with you!
First of all, tuning the kite for unhooked is so basic, it shouldn´t be even mentioned here in this thread!
To say the kite has nothing to say only means you need to spend more time testing kites :P
Yes of course you can do any trick on any kite if you are good enought, but there is a difference in a c and a bow in the way the kite slacks and the amount of it. I notice this every time I´m out kiting, and it´s NOT the rider since I´m still just me :P
Just for the record: I ride both types of kites - full double quiver...

Just listen to an expert who knows how to ride:


The reason is probably a mixture of reasons, not just the way the kites sits in the window (for those who remember the old days low ar deeper in the window, mid ar (freestyle) and high ar end of window (boosting) - all C´s but not all were as good for unhooking as the the other)...
The angle of attack, the bridle, the shape (LE shape), layout and wingtips...
Bridles and flat shape just seem to soften out gust and then also the pop, and then again less slack after. So a mixture of reasons I believe...
And sure the direct connected lines and the lines it´s self helps - try a steel wire as lines and you will not get the same slack. And no pulleys also - direct attached lines will be more direct and on and off. More explosive when releasing and then also less afterwards.

Again not saying I don´t make the same tricks on a hybrid, delta or SLE as a C, but the feel of the trick is much nicer and it also looks better when I do it on a C (same board, same spot, same conditions, same day).


Sam is a very good friend of mine, I ride with him all the time. I was standing right behind the camera when he gave that interview. Nothing he says supports anything you say nor disproves anything I said. I am also a pro rider and an instructor at the largest kite school in the world. We use every model of Best, Naish, Liquid Force, Ben Wilson and Slingshot kites on a daily basis. Not to mention I did R&D for Wainman Hawaii on the First Rabbit line and tested the Lou C kites back in 2008. So I think I might know what I'm talking about, but feel free to disagree all you want.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Quote:
Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite.

- just that one!
First of all sorry if I was a bit harsh ;) just annoyed by people that say kites does nothing, they are all just the same, just the board makes a difference. Not saying that you need a C, just that the feel is different and some stuff will be easier, just like a SLE/delta is easier for a beginner.

You´re probably a very good rider, much better than me - but you say it has nothing to do with the kite. The kite does not matter, no difference on the kite????
Well for those of us who are not pro, I guess a lot of us feel a difference using a different kite.
At least for me I find a lot of unhooked tricks easier on a C (using the same board the same day), so everything is the same, just not the kite. Yes I get slack on all my kites, but (it feels and looks like) a bit more on my C´s...
Just saying... Not that I know the whole aspect of designing a kite, you probably know more about this than me.

Put in the vid because he says a C helps because of the slack in the kite! And you say the kite doesn´t do anything.
Sure technique has a lot to say but, really kites does nothing for you?


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:07 pm 
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If you want to see a kite slack, watch this video (hadlow in mauritius)
It's soo easy to see how much slack there is, Aaron hardly looks like he's hardly fighting against the power of the kite at all.
True he's a great rider, but if you watch videos from other pro riders, you won't often see their kites slack like this...



... And besides that its a great vid, and worth watching again :)


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:36 am 
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john a wrote:
Quote:
Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite.

- just that one!
First of all sorry if I was a bit harsh ;) just annoyed by people that say kites does nothing, they are all just the same, just the board makes a difference. Not saying that you need a C, just that the feel is different and some stuff will be easier, just like a SLE/delta is easier for a beginner.

You´re probably a very good rider, much better than me - but you say it has nothing to do with the kite. The kite does not matter, no difference on the kite????
Well for those of us who are not pro, I guess a lot of us feel a difference using a different kite.
At least for me I find a lot of unhooked tricks easier on a C (using the same board the same day), so everything is the same, just not the kite. Yes I get slack on all my kites, but (it feels and looks like) a bit more on my C´s...
Just saying... Not that I know the whole aspect of designing a kite, you probably know more about this than me.

Put in the vid because he says a C helps because of the slack in the kite! And you say the kite doesn´t do anything.
Sure technique has a lot to say but, really kites does nothing for you?


Good point. To clarify, I meant that "only the kite" has nothing to do with it. It is all about the rider/kite combination. You can't say that any one kite will get more slack or pop. It is all about what the rider is used to. All kites feel and perform differently. Some kites you have to load longer, some shorter. Some you have less time after unhooking to throw your trick and some you can ride a while then pop. Some work better with less power, some with more power. In the end the kite that you know best and are most comfortable with will work the best. I only say that the kite has nothing to do with it because as long as the rider fully understands the kite he/she can get the same performance out of any kite.

A kite is just pull. If pull equals X and pop equals Y then your experience in the air will be the same regardless of angles or what the kite does. Because once you are in the air, if you popped hard enough, the kite is slacked anyways. My best reference is between the Rabbits and the Lou C kite, riding super powered I could throw a trick and get the same amount of slack with both kites. The only difference I noticed was after landing the trick, I could edge upwind and recover the c kite from the slack induced stall without hooking back in, where as the rabbit would back stall into the water no matter what unless I hooked in and sheeted out. This is without trimming the kite because if you do you loose power and therefore pop and slack. So knowing this you could just ride one size bigger bridle kite and trim it and it would be the same, but then you are comparing apples to oranges. Also, the height of you kite has a lot to do with the slack. any kite will not slack if it is too high.

And you are right when you say the board makes a huge difference too. I get way more pop with flatter boards. Bigger fins help too.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:59 am 
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I made that little vid alex85 mentioned - here's the direct link (jump to about 5.50)


interesting topic - would you say amount of slack is directly related to how dynamic / aggressive the pop?


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:57 pm 
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E^Ri wrote:
So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window. Most of you think that kills the power, but again, power is based on apparent wind speed not necessarily position in the wind window.


Don't you think that the apparent wind flowing across the canopy depends only by the position in the wind window and viceversa?


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:33 pm 
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E^Ri wrote:
john a wrote:
Quote:
Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite.

- just that one!
First of all sorry if I was a bit harsh ;) just annoyed by people that say kites does nothing, they are all just the same, just the board makes a difference. Not saying that you need a C, just that the feel is different and some stuff will be easier, just like a SLE/delta is easier for a beginner.

You´re probably a very good rider, much better than me - but you say it has nothing to do with the kite. The kite does not matter, no difference on the kite????
Well for those of us who are not pro, I guess a lot of us feel a difference using a different kite.
At least for me I find a lot of unhooked tricks easier on a C (using the same board the same day), so everything is the same, just not the kite. Yes I get slack on all my kites, but (it feels and looks like) a bit more on my C´s...
Just saying... Not that I know the whole aspect of designing a kite, you probably know more about this than me.

Put in the vid because he says a C helps because of the slack in the kite! And you say the kite doesn´t do anything.
Sure technique has a lot to say but, really kites does nothing for you?


Good point. To clarify, I meant that "only the kite" has nothing to do with it. It is all about the rider/kite combination. You can't say that any one kite will get more slack or pop. It is all about what the rider is used to. All kites feel and perform differently. Some kites you have to load longer, some shorter. Some you have less time after unhooking to throw your trick and some you can ride a while then pop. Some work better with less power, some with more power. In the end the kite that you know best and are most comfortable with will work the best. I only say that the kite has nothing to do with it because as long as the rider fully understands the kite he/she can get the same performance out of any kite.

A kite is just pull. If pull equals X and pop equals Y then your experience in the air will be the same regardless of angles or what the kite does. Because once you are in the air, if you popped hard enough, the kite is slacked anyways. My best reference is between the Rabbits and the Lou C kite, riding super powered I could throw a trick and get the same amount of slack with both kites. The only difference I noticed was after landing the trick, I could edge upwind and recover the c kite from the slack induced stall without hooking back in, where as the rabbit would back stall into the water no matter what unless I hooked in and sheeted out. This is without trimming the kite because if you do you loose power and therefore pop and slack. So knowing this you could just ride one size bigger bridle kite and trim it and it would be the same, but then you are comparing apples to oranges. Also, the height of you kite has a lot to do with the slack. any kite will not slack if it is too high.

And you are right when you say the board makes a huge difference too. I get way more pop with flatter boards. Bigger fins help too.


Hi E^Ri,

I just buy new wainman rabbit and at the learning stage of unhook tricks, do you think it is good to learn to practice basic technique like raley to blind?

xsporthk


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