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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:15 pm 
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@xsporthk: you can learn raily to blind on any kite - fairly easy trick, easiest surfacepass ;)

@E^Ri: A good explanation. I just read - "c´s don´t mean shit" on the first post heheh ;)
So if you are right would you explain the felt difference in a C vs bow for a lot of riders as C makes the right timing and power in the pop easier and therefore feels like more slack? For the normal mortal ;)


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:41 pm 
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I definetely agree with Sam about the unhooked-feeling of Cs and bows.

If you unhook while riding a C, you will nearly have the same amount of power hooked in or unhooked.
It's really easy to get a good pop and slack.

Bow or bridled kites get a energy boost, when you unhook. I often get the feeling of my arms being ripped off on bridled kites.

P.s. : for me the easiest surface pass is a raley to wrapped. It depends on the rider ;)


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:16 pm 
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alex85 wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window. Most of you think that kills the power, but again, power is based on apparent wind speed not necessarily position in the wind window.


Don't you think that the apparent wind flowing across the canopy depends only by the position in the wind window and viceversa?


sort of. when I teach I try to explain that the "power zones" are more like "acceleration zones." The deeper into the window you fly the kite the more it is able to accelerate, thus generating more power. Just think of when a kite is back stalling, it can be in the center of the window but still have no power.

The angle at which the wind is hitting the canopy does depend a little bit on placement in the window, and that will alter how much of the canopy is being engaged. I think I have herd this reffered to as "angle of attack" on this forum. However our ability to trim the kite and sheet in and out can offset this. And again as far as actual pull power, consider the blast of pull you get when the kite is sitting deep in the window and you sheet out a little bit. Even though you sheeted out and the kite moved closer to neutral, you somehow got more pull (momentarily, as the kite then reaches the edge of the window and slows down again only with less angle of attack). When we are throwing a trick it doesn't matter that the kite looses power after the initial burst because we are in the air already and we want slack anyways.

Xerox wrote:
I definetely agree with Sam about the unhooked-feeling of Cs and bows.

If you unhook while riding a C, you will nearly have the same amount of power hooked in or unhooked.
It's really easy to get a good pop and slack.

Bow or bridled kites get a energy boost, when you unhook. I often get the feeling of my arms being ripped off on bridled kites.


So now when we talk about the bridle kite's energy boost it has to do with the kite's inability to jump forward while unhooked. It's not that the kite starts to pull harder, it just slows down, sinking farther back in the wind window, making it really hard to hold the same line. Imagine that the kite is a boat and you are edging out as hard as you can aiming at a point. If the boat turns away, even slightly, then it will be much harder to continue riding toward your point. Even though the boat did not speed up. So on a bridle kite, when it starts to pull your arms off all you need to do is let off your edge a little and change your line more down wind before you pop to keep the power the same. Unfortunately as you do this the kite just keeps stalling.

john a wrote:
@xsporthk: you can learn raily to blind on any kite - fairly easy trick, easiest surfacepass ;)

@E^Ri: A good explanation. I just read - "c´s don´t mean shit" on the first post heheh ;)
So if you are right would you explain the felt difference in a C vs bow for a lot of riders as C makes the right timing and power in the pop easier and therefore feels like more slack? For the normal mortal ;)


So coming back to my statement that kite design doesn't mean shit. I meant that there are techniques you can use to make any kite do what you want. The reason C kites seem easier to get timing and pop (there fore slack) is because, as Sam said, they continue to fly forward with the same speed and angle of attack when you unhook. There fore you can hold the same line without feeling added tension. Also, when you pop it moves forward, placing the kite closer to your line of trajectory in the air, giving more slack.

However, the same amount of pop and slack can be achieved on a bridle kite. The key is to load and pop as soon as you unhook, so the kite doesn't have time to fall back as much. Your pop also has to be much harder to gain acceleration towards the kite as it will not move forward closer to your line of trajectory, so it takes a lot more core strength. You can trim your bridle kite so that it shoots forward better, but then it is depowered a bit, so you need to ride a bigger kite to get the same burst of power.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:36 pm 
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xsporthk wrote:

Hi E^Ri,

I just buy new wainman rabbit and at the learning stage of unhook tricks, do you think it is good to learn to practice basic technique like raley to blind?

xsporthk


Yes, basic technique is the key to anything. The only thing I would say about your first unhooked tricks is that raley based tricks are a little tough. Throwing your weight out then having to pull it back in just the right amount to the blind or wrapped is a little tricky, especially if you have never landed blind and passed the bar before. Plus it requires much better pop technique and kite postition. I actually learned front to blinds before I could raley to blind, but it is different for everyone.

I would start with simple hops to blind or wrapped where you don't do a raley. So instead of load and poping try to bear off and pop flat off a little chop and do just a 180 to blind. This will help you get used to landing blind, passing the bar, and keeping the kite in control throughout. Then you can start doing it with a little bit of load. This will get you used to keeping your core tight and keeping your arms in. Just the act of load and popping sort of throws you into what looks like a raley but the difference that I am trying to explain is to not relax and let your arms extend in the air. Then once you can load hard and pop without letting your body get extended and you have a feel for turning to blind, then you can start thinking of relaxing your arms and really extending the raley.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Posts: 421
E^Ri wrote:
alex85 wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window. Most of you think that kills the power, but again, power is based on apparent wind speed not necessarily position in the wind window.


Don't you think that the apparent wind flowing across the canopy depends only by the position in the wind window and viceversa?


sort of. when I teach I try to explain that the "power zones" are more like "acceleration zones." The deeper into the window you fly the kite the more it is able to accelerate, thus generating more power. Just think of when a kite is back stalling, it can be in the center of the window but still have no power.

The angle at which the wind is hitting the canopy does depend a little bit on placement in the window, and that will alter how much of the canopy is being engaged. I think I have herd this reffered to as "angle of attack" on this forum. However our ability to trim the kite and sheet in and out can offset this. And again as far as actual pull power, consider the blast of pull you get when the kite is sitting deep in the window and you sheet out a little bit. Even though you sheeted out and the kite moved closer to neutral, you somehow got more pull (momentarily, as the kite then reaches the edge of the window and slows down again only with less angle of attack). When we are throwing a trick it doesn't matter that the kite looses power after the initial burst because we are in the air already and we want slack anyways.

Xerox wrote:
I definetely agree with Sam about the unhooked-feeling of Cs and bows.

If you unhook while riding a C, you will nearly have the same amount of power hooked in or unhooked.
It's really easy to get a good pop and slack.

Bow or bridled kites get a energy boost, when you unhook. I often get the feeling of my arms being ripped off on bridled kites.


So now when we talk about the bridle kite's energy boost it has to do with the kite's inability to jump forward while unhooked. It's not that the kite starts to pull harder, it just slows down, sinking farther back in the wind window, making it really hard to hold the same line. Imagine that the kite is a boat and you are edging out as hard as you can aiming at a point. If the boat turns away, even slightly, then it will be much harder to continue riding toward your point. Even though the boat did not speed up. So on a bridle kite, when it starts to pull your arms off all you need to do is let off your edge a little and change your line more down wind before you pop to keep the power the same. Unfortunately as you do this the kite just keeps stalling.

john a wrote:
@xsporthk: you can learn raily to blind on any kite - fairly easy trick, easiest surfacepass ;)

@E^Ri: A good explanation. I just read - "c´s don´t mean shit" on the first post heheh ;)
So if you are right would you explain the felt difference in a C vs bow for a lot of riders as C makes the right timing and power in the pop easier and therefore feels like more slack? For the normal mortal ;)


So coming back to my statement that kite design doesn't mean shit. I meant that there are techniques you can use to make any kite do what you want. The reason C kites seem easier to get timing and pop (there fore slack) is because, as Sam said, they continue to fly forward with the same speed and angle of attack when you unhook. There fore you can hold the same line without feeling added tension. Also, when you pop it moves forward, placing the kite closer to your line of trajectory in the air, giving more slack.

However, the same amount of pop and slack can be achieved on a bridle kite. The key is to load and pop as soon as you unhook, so the kite doesn't have time to fall back as much. Your pop also has to be much harder to gain acceleration towards the kite as it will not move forward closer to your line of trajectory, so it takes a lot more core strength. You can trim your bridle kite so that it shoots forward better, but then it is depowered a bit, so you need to ride a bigger kite to get the same burst of power.

Not sure you can blame a bridle for this. If you are riding with your bar against the CL before you un hook then the act of unhooking will not make any difference to the kite at all. It is not the bridle that makes the kite behave in the way you describe it is more the fact that the bridle allows you to design a kite that will fly over a larger range of angle of attack. This is also why bridled kites can be perceived to have more grunt/ range. If you were to put a bridle on a true c kite its ability to perform would not alter but some would argue it feel different.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:41 pm
Posts: 50
E^Ri wrote:
alex85 wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window. Most of you think that kills the power, but again, power is based on apparent wind speed not necessarily position in the wind window.


Don't you think that the apparent wind flowing across the canopy depends only by the position in the wind window and viceversa?


sort of. when I teach I try to explain that the "power zones" are more like "acceleration zones." The deeper into the window you fly the kite the more it is able to accelerate, thus generating more power. Just think of when a kite is back stalling, it can be in the center of the window but still have no power.

The angle at which the wind is hitting the canopy does depend a little bit on placement in the window, and that will alter how much of the canopy is being engaged. I think I have herd this reffered to as "angle of attack" on this forum. However our ability to trim the kite and sheet in and out can offset this. And again as far as actual pull power, consider the blast of pull you get when the kite is sitting deep in the window and you sheet out a little bit. Even though you sheeted out and the kite moved closer to neutral, you somehow got more pull (momentarily, as the kite then reaches the edge of the window and slows down again only with less angle of attack). When we are throwing a trick it doesn't matter that the kite looses power after the initial burst because we are in the air already and we want slack anyways.

Xerox wrote:
I definetely agree with Sam about the unhooked-feeling of Cs and bows.

If you unhook while riding a C, you will nearly have the same amount of power hooked in or unhooked.
It's really easy to get a good pop and slack.

Bow or bridled kites get a energy boost, when you unhook. I often get the feeling of my arms being ripped off on bridled kites.


So now when we talk about the bridle kite's energy boost it has to do with the kite's inability to jump forward while unhooked. It's not that the kite starts to pull harder, it just slows down, sinking farther back in the wind window, making it really hard to hold the same line. Imagine that the kite is a boat and you are edging out as hard as you can aiming at a point. If the boat turns away, even slightly, then it will be much harder to continue riding toward your point. Even though the boat did not speed up. So on a bridle kite, when it starts to pull your arms off all you need to do is let off your edge a little and change your line more down wind before you pop to keep the power the same. Unfortunately as you do this the kite just keeps stalling.

john a wrote:
@xsporthk: you can learn raily to blind on any kite - fairly easy trick, easiest surfacepass ;)

@E^Ri: A good explanation. I just read - "c´s don´t mean shit" on the first post heheh ;)
So if you are right would you explain the felt difference in a C vs bow for a lot of riders as C makes the right timing and power in the pop easier and therefore feels like more slack? For the normal mortal ;)


So coming back to my statement that kite design doesn't mean shit. I meant that there are techniques you can use to make any kite do what you want. The reason C kites seem easier to get timing and pop (there fore slack) is because, as Sam said, they continue to fly forward with the same speed and angle of attack when you unhook. There fore you can hold the same line without feeling added tension. Also, when you pop it moves forward, placing the kite closer to your line of trajectory in the air, giving more slack.

However, the same amount of pop and slack can be achieved on a bridle kite. The key is to load and pop as soon as you unhook, so the kite doesn't have time to fall back as much. Your pop also has to be much harder to gain acceleration towards the kite as it will not move forward closer to your line of trajectory, so it takes a lot more core strength. You can trim your bridle kite so that it shoots forward better, but then it is depowered a bit, so you need to ride a bigger kite to get the same burst of power.


I don't know why, but reading this answer I can't stop to think:"This is the true!!!" :D
And I'm really happy to have some confirmations from a guy with your experience!!!

Last questions:

I always achieve more slack with bigger sizes of kite ( 10-12-17 ) than ( 9-7 )...the only reason is because I ride more with the bigger ones???


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:25 pm 
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fdvj wrote:
Not sure you can blame a bridle for this. If you are riding with your bar against the CL before you un hook then the act of unhooking will not make any difference to the kite at all. It is not the bridle that makes the kite behave in the way you describe it is more the fact that the bridle allows you to design a kite that will fly over a larger range of angle of attack. This is also why bridled kites can be perceived to have more grunt/ range. If you were to put a bridle on a true c kite its ability to perform would not alter but some would argue it feel different.
I agree. Fully sheeted in kites are fully sheeted in, hooked or not.
Unless the back lines are connected a knot or two short so the kite stalls when unhooked.
I do believe that lots of people fly their SLE kites oversheeted all the time, for some perceived benefit of more power or better hooked in boosting.
Kites that stall a lot unless flown with some depower, are poorly designed kites ..in my humble opinion.
I just read a post from a kite company sales manager last week, defending that trait.
I hate stall-ey kites.
Bow/SLE/Hybrid shaped kites have more power size for size than C kites because they are flatter and have more projected canopy area and a different canopy profile and shape. They have more range because the bridle/tow point allows for a larger change in AOA with the Bow/SLE/Hybrid shape. Bridled SLE C kites have more range than a four line "core" C kite but still not the massive range of Bow-ish (a whole bunch of SLE hybrids) kite.
Doesn't a flatter kite, and a higher aspect kite, (that flies more forward in the window) shoot forward faster than a lower aspect fatty or a C kite after a lull and a gust hits?


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:46 pm 
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I don't know why, but reading this answer I can't stop to think:"This is the true!!!" :D
And I'm really happy to have some confirmations from a guy with your experience!!!

Last questions:

I always achieve more slack with bigger sizes of kite ( 10-12-17 ) than ( 9-7 )...the only reason is because I ride more with the bigger ones???[/quote]




Wind speed


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:32 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:05 pm
Posts: 85
fdvj wrote:
Not sure you can blame a bridle for this. If you are riding with your bar against the CL before you un hook then the act of unhooking will not make any difference to the kite at all. It is not the bridle that makes the kite behave in the way you describe it is more the fact that the bridle allows you to design a kite that will fly over a larger range of angle of attack. This is also why bridled kites can be perceived to have more grunt/ range. If you were to put a bridle on a true c kite its ability to perform would not alter but some would argue it feel different.


Yes you are correct. In my comparison I referred to a bridle kite as in a bow. I should have just said bow. These days with all the "hybrid" shapes, bridled kites have been getting closer and closer to c kite performance. With bridled kites like the RPM I can barely tell a difference unless I switch from one to the other in the same session. So yes, it is not the bridle necessarily, thanks for catching that.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:51 am 
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alex85 wrote:
Last questions:

I always achieve more slack with bigger sizes of kite ( 10-12-17 ) than ( 9-7 )...the only reason is because I ride more with the bigger ones???


There are a lot of factors, I don't believe kite size is a determining one. Bigger kites have more inertia, so it is easier to get more tension in the lines when you load. Also when you ride bigger kites the wind has less speed so maybe the kite doesn't blow down wind and recover from the pop as quick. However, a small kite can do the same, you just need to compensate for the faster kite speed with faster board speed. When I ride super powered on a 7m I feel like I still get a ton of slack, but I'm going way faster and way bigger than on big kites.

Another key to slack is keeping your kite low, this is much easier on big kites since they don't turn as fast.


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